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Thread: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

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    .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    anyone loaded the .450 Marlin down to subsonic. Ive a project that required a .450 subsonic. thought i'd ask if anyone has any experience with this already before getting into the nuts and bolts,. thanks in advance
    Pete
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    ive played with the 458 lott loaded down with 500gr barnes just for fun, had more luck with 100gr ali @ 4500fps lot more fun
    have you got a starting load ?
    21gr trailboss was my start point

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    no Dave, not started yet, apart from the rifle ( well barreled action) is built,

    we are looking at 2 uses. short range subsonic boar round, looking at heavy bullets that will expand reliably, and be accurate up to about 150m

    LE round with reduced over penetration and reduced ricochet. ( 25cm maximum penetration in ballistic gelatine block. maximum short range ( up to max 150m) accuracy.



    I used to hunt with a 45/70 years ago and we did some subsonic loads for that,which would have been my starting point, but i'm damned if i can find the data.

    I'm going to put the ammo project in the lap of the custom ammo company i work closely with, but am sort looking for any extra ideas to save us re inventing the wheel again

    Pete
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    hi pete
    got to ask why the marlin case ? the 458win case is much easier to find and very good quality stuff from norma etc
    the 458 has been used at all sorts of oal all the way down to an 1"
    ive got two 458 so ive played with them quite a bit as for the bullets i dont think you will find what your looking for off the shelf ,
    the sierra 300gr is the most expanding ive found, varmint round at high fps still expands at very low fps big hollow point flat nose
    as for a rrlp , no way , the best off the shelf is an ali head 100-150gr , you really would have to get powdered cored custom made .
    got to laugh i did a demo a long time time ago 458 through 6 railway sleepers hit the back stop still in one piece,
    .458 is by far my favourite cal
    the custom subs in cnc brass will need a special twist that would mean the gun could not be used with normal jacket bullets ?
    i have supplied a london gun maker with loaded ammo so ive got quite a good rep!

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    both barnes and hornady do tipped 300-350gr
    good starting point
    barnes have a 250gr fn at max ffp might have some lp
    and at sub vel the 500gn barnes will penatrate game no prob

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Hi Dave. the .458 win case would need shortening to make it fit in a WSM action and AICS magazine. this means custom die's, custom reamer.
    The .450 Marlin is available all as standard, feeds well from the AICS mag in a WSM action.
    Then we'd have problems getting a shortened 458win through the proof, as you could stick it in any of the Win Mags and have an accident, not so with the .450 Marlin.

    Ive also had a fiddle with a .50 projectile in a knecked up .300WSM case.

    But the request from LE was for a .458, as they aren't happy with thier .300 and .338 Whisper's

    I was thinking i could probably use similar charges for both directions, but taylor the barrel, i.e. twist rate to the actual bullets used for each application,,

    the barreled action is a fast twist .450 my colleague in the defence business is looking into the projectiles.
    we had to start some where, so factory .450 ammmo was whats been through it so far.
    the project is in its infancy, which is why i asked here,, just incase we where about to cover ground all ready tread by some one else.
    rgds Pete
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    looks like you will be going over ground covered by the socom
    that uses a moded 50ae case with fps between sub and 2300fps
    as far as proof will go there is no problem with uk proof of a 1 1/2 " win case it functions in a normal win chamber , birmingham proof house will conferm think the guy is called ian ? ive got current pricing here some where on the costs ,
    dies and reamers are easy for a straight case
    anyway the project sounds very interesting , i wonder what direction the projectile will take to fit the brief , if when you get some would like to test a few if poss , a frangible .458 would be good , barnes will do a rrlp .458 if you put in a big enough order same for a tipped 500gr [we are listed as custom loaders]
    when you get to play you will be amazed at what a 600gr cnc vld will do at sub fps
    good luck , keep us posted

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Cast bullets for the boar round or jacketed? At those low velocities the typical heavy construction 45cal rifle bullets punch holes, not expand. Solids are designed to stay together at impact velocites double what you're looking at here, I would stay away from solids all around.

    I did some subsonic playing with a 45/70 using lead round balls normally used in a 45cal flintlock pistol. I want to say ~4gr of RedDot, Large Rifle Mag primer, and a little bit of a cotton ball as a filler. It threw the 200gr ball around 900fps and I used it for plinking. Accuracy at 50yd was right about 3/4".

    With the capacity a 458 magnum rifle caliber has I think you're going to be stuck with Trailboss or using a filler, you may even need a filler with the TB powder for consistent accuracy.

    I'm sure it would kill Boar, but there are better solutions. You can get lead moulds for 500+gr cast lead bullets that stabilize from standard twists and hit like the hammer of Thor at subsonic speeds. My dad uses one to cast 458's then lathe turn them down to 44 caliber and load them in a stubby little 44 automag type wildcat for hunting subsonic/suppressed.

    Soft lead expands very reliably and can be shot at subsonic speeds with a gas check.

    The LE problem is a little different because you don't want/need the hammer effect and I suspect that light, hollow point cast pistol bullets would be the ticket there. The big heavies have shot through 16 - 1gal milk jugs full of water and gone "zzzzzzzfffffp" off downrange.
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    From my experience I have found the cast loads to penetrate quite deep and if they only hit soft Target can ball up or very slight mushroom ,what you need is a proper fracturing projectile in my own experiments the Ali heads and 450 gr are stopped by about 8" of water the cast needs an estimated 4-5times as .much
    Ali at high fps and fracturing heaviest at sub fps
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Dave-

    With hard cast lead our tests said similarly, however with very soft lead they acted a lot differently.

    With hard cast we couldn't stop them in a reasonable manner (we ran out of milk jugs and phone books) but with very soft lead hollowpoints they would mushroom up and stop nicely.

    The LE situation doesn't say if they want something for breaking lights or knockdown of human targets without hitting something behind them from over-penetrating.

    I suspect it is the latter, and a light, soft bullet would be my suggestion to try.
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    The lead cast ones I tried were bulk buy so were probably hard

    Like I said in previous post the 100gr Ali are fun quite explosive at short range and very easily stopped

    In general the 458 is a super round in most chamberings it can handle a vast array of bullet weights
    I would of persued the subsonic further if it was not such a richocet hazard , a bouncing .500 can do a lot of damage .
    Iam going the other way and I am currently working on a .600gr vld on a imp 30o bmg case

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Not .450 but . I think for the .458 socom rounds, They were going with 14 to 18 twist rate . Subsonic Heavies were 14-twist .
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Try something proven like a .510 whisper.
    http://sskindustries.com/50-caliber
    MOA accuracy to 600 yards. Made with a .338LM case.




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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    I shoot alot of Sub-Sonic's in my 45-70's. Which is basically the same as the 450 Marlin you are using.

    I have two types of sub-sonic's. One that is 500 fps or so, and one that is close to 1100 fps. I use the same bullet in both of those loads. I use a 405 grain bullet that I cast. I can cast it from straight WW, or pure lead. Both will perform well, but the pure lead will mushroom very well at just under 1100 fps, and the WW will flatten out to about 65 caliber.

    I use Red Dot for my "Gallery Load". I normally use 4.0 grains of Red Dot(or 3.0), and in my long barreled 45-70 single shots the load is completely quiet. You can hear the hammer drop on my 1885 and Sharp's. I use this load for small game while deer hunting. I shoot alot of grouse every year while deer hunting with this silent load.

    For the 1100 fps sub-sonic I use Trail Boss powder. Trail Boss will do exactly what you want to do, and it will also alleviate all problems with case capacity of the faster powders. I buy Trail Boss by the 5# jug. It works in about every cartridge, but really shines in the 45-70(and 450 Marlin). Just ask the Cowboy Action guys about Trail Boss. Tom.


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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    thanks guys, just the sort of tips i was looking for,
    Dave, tell me more about the Ali bullets, might be interesting to have a chat.
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Hi pete
    the ali bullets , i used them for foxing from a high seat only to about 50y or so , i have to be carefull at bisley as you are not allowed a soild type bullet !! has to be traditional jacket lead core ,
    there is a guy in the US making them "lehigh" i think , but i dont think he will ship , UK company called the gun room uk were doing some solids , but i have the feeling somthing is up as they are not answering emails you might know the guy bernie"
    made mine on a cnc
    [img:left]http://[/img]
    need to load them with pistol powder , can get them up to stupid speeds, at 200y you could probably catch one in your hand!!
    loaded is a 300gr sierra , 600gr vld 100gr ali

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    the other bullet design to try is the controlled fracturing from lutz moller and the others but instead of running at sub fps use at 2500 ish that should do well as a rrlp

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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Dave i'm very interested in those cnc aly bullets, might be just the job, drop me a line will you mate,

    the rest of the tips are just what we where looking for, confirmed what my ammo guy here thinks.

    rgds Pete
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    Re: .450 Marlin Subsonic loads

    Dunno if a 45 winmag would work.