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Thread: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

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    Temperature Stable Powder Test!!


    Saw this and thought I would share. These guys have started to put out some good info. I was always planning on doing this test. Now I don't have to. This is why I shoot H1000 and Retumbo


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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Yes, I like my Hodgdon extreme powders. But, even if you use a well known powder that might be more temp sensitive, it is very predictable. I shot R22 in my 300 WM for many years, because it shot so well. Once you test it some, you can figure it out fairly easily.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
    Yes, I like my Hodgdon extreme powders. But, even if you use a well known powder that might be more temp sensitive, it is very predictable. I shot R22 in my 300 WM for many years, because it shot so well. Once you test it some, you can figure it out fairly easily.


    You're right, you can...

    It is, however, a HUGE advantage to know your MV all day, every day. I've been shooting my Savage 308 for years now, playing with different loads and this year I finally realized I needed to settle on ONE load, learn it, and shoot my barrel out with it.

    Its hard enough to be keeping track and adjusting for atmospheric conditions changing throughout the day and their impact on trajectory just based on DA, nevermind MV changing too!

    I'm 99% sure I'm going to build a 284, and unfortunately, Reloder 17 is *the* powder for that cartridge....and it aint stable like the Varget! Good chance I'll choose to give up 150fps and use H4350.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Neat test, Thanks for sharing

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    I wonder what the "other" powder was?

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Neat test. It would be nice to have a list of the powders most of us have found to be 'stable'.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: turbo54
    I'm 99% sure I'm going to build a 284, and unfortunately, Reloder 17 is *the* powder for that cartridge....and it aint stable like the Varget! Good chance I'll choose to give up 150fps and use H4350.

    H4831 is also a good powder. If you build it on a long action and shoot the heavy bullets (160 grain +), then H4831 would be great. If it's on a short action, then I'd look at H4350.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    H-4350 has performed reliably for me, and is described by Hodgdon as being one of their 'SC' (Short Cut) powders; which is supposed to aid their flow through measures. I use it primarily for .260 Rem and .280 Rem.

    Greg
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
    Originally Posted By: turbo54
    I'm 99% sure I'm going to build a 284, and unfortunately, Reloder 17 is *the* powder for that cartridge....and it aint stable like the Varget! Good chance I'll choose to give up 150fps and use H4350.

    H4831 is also a good powder. If you build it on a long action and shoot the heavy bullets (160 grain +), then H4831 would be great. If it's on a short action, then I'd look at H4350.


    Thanks! You too Greg!

    In fact, I'm rocking an FN SPR short action, so I'm afraid the H4831SC is going to rob me of much needed capacity. I'll try it, but I think H4350 is gonna be it. I read an article about a 284 built on a short action, and Re17 was good for HUNDREDS of fps more than H4350...4831 was far behind due to charge weight constraints. A drop tube is definitely in my future.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: glock24
    I wonder what the "other" powder was?

    Cartridge looked like 300WM. If it is a 300wm the unstable powder is R22 no doubt about it in my mind. I used R22 in my 1000yd BR gun back 14 years ago and it was very fickle, did a lot of load chasing.
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Kombayotch is the man. He posts here on SH and on Canadian Gun Nutz.

    He took an oven to the range and heated the ammo. With a chronograph he verified the Hodgdon claims of small temp changes.

    Scroll down until you see me post his graph, and down further to his post.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...Number=2273404

    He is also the guy that independently tested Copper solvents:
    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...1021318&page=1

    As a result I am ignoring the almost unbelievably high velocities I am getting with Re17.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Vihtvuori powders are also very temperature insensitive. I have had an easier time finding the sweet spot with Viht powders myself.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Excellent video thanks for posting



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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    i noticed he wasnt wearing safety glasses...
    " If you must carry a .25acp, don't load it. If you load it you might shoot it. If you shoot it you might hit somebody with it and he'd then be justified in killing you because you attacked him."

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn
    Originally Posted By: glock24
    I wonder what the "other" powder was?

    Cartridge looked like 300WM. If it is a 300wm the unstable powder is R22 no doubt about it in my mind. I used R22 in my 1000yd BR gun back 14 years ago and it was very fickle, did a lot of load chasing.
    Knowing those guys, it was a 7 Rem. Mag.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: jbroadnax
    Vihtvuori powders are also very temperature insensitive. I have had an easier time finding the sweet spot with Viht
    powders myself.


    Which VV powder are you using? I have found 550 to be INTOLERANT with temperature swings. I have talked about it before after shooting 46.0 to 47.2 grains safely in 38*f temperatures and having to stop because of pressure warnings at 50*f at 46.8. I was using once fired Winchester brass, br2 primers, 185 bullets. I ended up shooting at 1k with a load of 46.4 @60*f and had an occaisional sticky bolt. Above 70* I wont shoot 550 above 46.0 grains.

    Now that 46.4 grain load was good for 31 moa at 1k on that day. I still have it dialed in on my scope as I haven't shot any more competitions this year.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON
    Further, were you to try to "zero" your elk load at 32 degrees from the cooler on a 90 degree day in the summer, you would be heart broken to witness actual external ballistics under 32 degree conditions.


    Your "zero" may be off but you should have checked that in the same temp you plan on hunting in, or close to it. The real objective is to get the mv stable so you can enter info into ballistics calculator (which will account for temp change) and have everything come out as close as possible. So yes sir this is a helpful test.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    The test in the youtube is a crock of horse shit.

    There are reasons the military and both SAAMI and CIP condition ammo at extreme temperatures and condition the ammo for AT LEAST two hours at each end and at ambient temperatures.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: turbo54


    I'm 99% sure I'm going to build a 284, and unfortunately, Reloder 17 is *the* powder for that cartridge....and it aint stable like the Varget! Good chance I'll choose to give up 150fps and use H4350.


    I have a .284 and run 4831-SC with great results. As do allot of other .284 shooters. Dont get overly concerned with the velocity. Im pushing 180 bergers right at 2880, and 162 Amax at 2990 with 4831-sc. Mine is a Long Action
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON
    No folks, sorry. This is not a good test. I mean no offense to the gentlemen, but this test does not mimic real world events.

    Further, were you to try to "zero" your elk load at 32 degrees from the cooler on a 90 degree day in the summer, you would be heart broken to witness actual external ballistics under 32 degree conditions.


    And why is this a bad test? Have you done other such test that came out with different results?

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Do you want to know about heated ammo?

    A friend of mine hunted Chad with a 30-378 Wby. It was hot! He could not touch the barrel without gloves BEFORE firing. Every shot he had a stuck case.
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Yep...I learned the hard way about this stuff with AA 2520 ball powder in my 6mmART40. I worked up the load at 2925 fps in the middle of summer then in the middle of winter I noticed my dope was way off at distance with a confirmed 100Y zero. Actually thought the scope had broke. Brought the chrono out the next day and discovered a 150 fps drop in velocity. I was shocked!!! I use the 2520 for fireforming loads and a paper weight now.

    Hodgedon extreme is all I use now.

    A good ballistic program will compensate for muzzle velocity variance with a temp sensitive powder but the question is will your rifle shoot as well at a substantially different velocity ??? Probably not because it'll be in and out of the barrel nodes where the rifle shoots best.

    Hey,I thought of good thing about using sensitive powders.You'll get better barrel life in the winter [img]<>/wink.gif[/img]

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON
    SkyKing,
    I'm not here to get in any confrontation. The test performed showed what could happen to ammunition conditioned inside a cooler. However, it's not real-world. In the real world, the atmosphere has a large play in how a bullet flies thru the air.

    Bottom line: If you've got a propellant/primer/bullet combination that launches at exactly the same velocity, regardless of temperature, you've still got to adjust your sights due to atmospheric changes. That's my only point.


    In your statement above you stated exactly what the test confirmed. He wasn't saying anything about accuracy or that with the Extreme line of powders you don't have to make adjustments for environmentals. He simply backed up the manufacturers claims that their powder will hold its velocity through the temperature range most of us find ourselves shooting in(except for those of us licky enough to live in SD where it can be 110* in the summer and -30* in the winter). So, by in large, your statement that the test was useless was wrong and you just said that yourself.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    I think the point of the test was to show how Hodgdon extreme powders have very little MV variation due to temp changes vs other powders.

    Zero'ing and knowing the dope for your rifle for different ambient conditions is an entirely different topic.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...19#post5026419


    This is Kombayotch's graph from his verification of Hodgdon's claims, by putting a heating pad in one cooler and other ammo in the club house freezer at the range.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: KSKevin
    I think the point of the test was to show how Hodgdon extreme powders have very little MV variation due to temp changes vs other powders.

    Zero'ing and knowing the dope for your rifle for different ambient conditions is an entirely different topic.


    That is what I was getting at. Thanks. No confrontation ether.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Its been a while since I played around with magpro powder, but if I remember right isn't it considered a ball powder??
    I am shooting a 280AI, I have only shot the gun a couple times and have only used H4831SC and have only tried 140gr accubonds, but am considering moving up to 162gr A-Max and am not sure the H4831SC is the powder for the heavier bullet.
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    did anyone else noticed that the "stable powder" cold load was 11FPS faster than the hot load!!

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON
    Yes, the test showed what could happen when you condition rounds in a cooler. I'll grant you, perhaps a matter of symantics. My only point is that conditioning rounds in a cooler, then shooting them at a target will NOT provide you REAL WORLD scope adjustments for different enviornmental conditions. That's all.

    I just don't want some poor guy who's investing 5 grand into an Elk hunt to think he can put his rounds in a cooler to find out where his bullet will impact when it's 32 degrees outside. External ballistics doesn't work that way. Caveat emptor. See my point?


    I agree that it doesn't mimic real work conditions in many cases. Because of the way most people transport their ammunition, it usually does not see a significant temperature swing if it's shortly after arriving at the range.

    Most hunters don't use scopes with exposed turrets, so precise ballistic trajectories is really a moot point to begin with for that type of shooter. They're often shooting at relatively close distances and using hold-overs. I would agree that for them, it is really futile to worry about temperature stability. However, for those who do adjust their turrets, measure atmospheric conditions and compute the new trajectory (I sure as heck would for a long shot), velocity change does make a difference. Yes, the trajectory does change with atmospheric conditions. However, if your velocity is also changing, then you have just introduced another variable to deal with. Atmospheric conditions can easily be measured with a kestrel, the internal temperature of the rounds cannot.

    Even if you know your loads velocity change with temperature from a test like that, once you step out of your nice heated vehicle, its going to take several hours for the internal temperature of your rounds to reach steady-state with the outside temperature. How long it takes is going to depend on the thermal resistance of whatever the rounds are sitting in. During that time, you will not know what that internal temperature is and what your velocity is if its changing a lot with temperature. I would much rather eliminate that variable as much as possible, personally.

    Many people who are target shooting are always shooting at relatively close temperatures, and have sighter shots, so it also isn't a big deal for them. But, for people shooting year round in places that have big temperature swings, why not use a stable powder when there are excellent options available? Especially if you are going to take the time to measure conditions and compute a trajectory. It only makes sense to eliminate the velocity change as a variable as much as possible.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: attherange
    did anyone else noticed that the "stable powder" cold load was 11FPS faster than the hot load!!


    Retumbo and H1000 also INCREASED in velocity at lower temperature in my test:



    I will take test data like the OP's over people's anecdotes about a powders velocity change any day of the week, because I know that they likely did not know what the internal temperature of the powder really was at and likely aren't even aware that it might not be the same as the ambient temperature they measured.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!



    A "reasonably" stable propellant is naturally desirable.

    Marksmanship cannot be trumped by propellant stability.

    OCW method of tuning "the" load will help alleviate atmospheric changes.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson
    Marksmanship cannot be trumped by propellant stability.


    Yes, it also can't be trumped by having a match grade barrel, a custom action, higher quality optics, more consistent bullets and cases, calibers that shoot flatter and are less wind resistant, trimming your cases to a consistent length, weighing powders with a higher accuracy scale or any of the other things we discuss here. Even having an accurate load is trumped by marksmanship, so shy even worry about developing one?

    I suppose they're a waste to talk about or even bother with since they're all trumped by marksmanship. By that measure, any of those topics and most of the forums for that matter, are well past the point of decomposition and long into the process of becoming fossilized skeletal remains at this point.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Wow how do we get off course? The test would appear relevant to me. Cold rounds happen in cold environments, and the test was from chamber to about 10 feet (chronograph). This tells me that most likely the non temp stable powders could give me a POI shift in different climates given a measured FPS change for the same load.

    That being said, if one knows or checks his DOPE in the environment he is hunting or shooting in, he should be in the clear regardless of what smokeless powder is in his brass.

    So it goes back to due diligence and understanding factors that aid in consistency. After all good marksmanship is doing the same thing over and over again to build a repeatable product.
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    imr4064 and h4895 have done me right in temp fluctuations.
    dhs wants to put ther dik in our arse, thanks obama!

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Hogdon extreme powders are hard to beat for temp stability.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!


    Point is, Komb, sooner or later you're gonna have to shoot the gun.

    Analysis paralysis


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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Big whoop... I don't sweat the small stuff. I choose to shoot powders that shoot best in my rifles, regardless of how "temperature sensitive" they are. That's the reason for keeping data books.
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson

    Point is, Komb, sooner or later you're gonna have to shoot the gun.

    Analysis paralysis


    Of course you will. In the grand scheme of things, most shooters probably waste an order of magnitude more time than they would spend on this test performing needless loading operations because they've never verified that those actually improve anything or does what people claim it does. They've just taken internet advice as gold and have taken the shotgun approach to loading. A bit of analysis up front can save you a lot of time in the long run, it can also allow you to confirm or disprove something with one simple 15 min. test like the one above. Analysis isn't a time waster, it's a time saver.

    I find it ironic that people see value in spending a bunch of time developing a perfect load, finding that ideal charge weight that gives them the smallest groups and then say temperature stability doesn't matter. If your velocity is changing, so is pressure and barrels time. That load is getting re-tuned the same way it does when you vary the charge weight at a fixed temperature. So, if someone isn't worried about temperature stability, they shouldn't bother chasing that small group during load development since they don't care about it shifting all over the place with large temperature changes.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Any familiarity with OCW is either absent, or misunderstood; OCW is optimal in that variations in ambient conditions are contemplated. OCW takes up a lot of slack left by a propellant's instability to some extent. Consequently, my observation here remains to be

    1. choose a reasonably stable propellant that provides reasonable performance,

    2. complement a rifle's twist rate with an acceptable bullet length, and

    3. test and confirm using the OCW method, allowing it to work for the shooter.

    The goal of OCW is to, in part, address ambient condition changes, among others, and affectively cope with those changes.

    The most stable propellant might not shoot well for all barrels.

    "Reasonable" analysis is a time saver, don't misunderstand, please.

    Again, choose a load and shoot it
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    unless
    one's obsession is testing rather than shooting.

    Its TRIGGER time. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]



    November 2014, members of Congress, and one-third of the Senate are up for re-election.

    Concentration: Big AR cal. (6xc), Colt 1911.

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  40. #40
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    What exactly is "reasonably stable" powder and how do you determine this given that there is no published temperature stability data? Without testing it you have nothing on which to base that other than manufacturer claims, people's anecdotes and your assumption that it is. "reasonably stable" sounds nice, but you have no way of quantifying what is or isn't without trying it. The statement alone is just fluff...

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!


    No sir. 35 years handloading experience is what that statement is rooted in.

    Reasonably stable means stability a shooter is willing to tolerate while achieving velocity, accuracy and acceptable pressure.

    Yet again, my point is testing and development is necessary though a shooter must finally choose and shoot. Stability is but one aspect to consider.


    November 2014, members of Congress, and one-third of the Senate are up for re-election.

    Concentration: Big AR cal. (6xc), Colt 1911.

    josephsimpson47@gmail.com


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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Your 35 years of handloading experience doesn't tell me or anyone else which powder is more temperature stable when we are deciding between two loads. A test like the one above does. It's something that you do when you have two or more loads that show equal promise in terms of accuracy, velocity, pressure and whatever else. It take 20 min. to do, and you only need to do it once. I somehow doubt that running it is going to eat into one's shooting time so much that it impedes the development of their marksmanship skills...

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson

    No sir. 35 years handloading experience is what that statement is rooted in.

    Reasonably stable means stability a shooter is willing to tolerate while achieving velocity, accuracy and acceptable pressure.

    Yet again, my point is testing and development is necessary though a shooter must finally choose and shoot. Stability is but one aspect to consider.

    35 years of OCD and realoading at that lol,learned a lot from Casey about reloading his methods never fail me from 30-105*.
    1*

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON
    Yes, the test showed what could happen when you condition rounds in a cooler. I'll grant you, perhaps a matter of symantics. My only point is that conditioning rounds in a cooler, then shooting them at a target will NOT provide you REAL WORLD scope adjustments for different enviornmental conditions. That's all.

    I just don't want some poor guy who's investing 5 grand into an Elk hunt to think he can put his rounds in a cooler to find out where his bullet will impact when it's 32 degrees outside. External ballistics doesn't work that way. Caveat emptor. See my point?


    The above test has absolutely nothing to do with external ballistics other than what is occurring from the muzzle to 10 feet in front of it. You're getting muzzle velocity confused with bullet performance as it relates to different density altitude conditions. No one is saying that this test WILL give you real world elevation adjustments. What this test shows is the effects of ambient temperature on the powder charge and the resulting chamber pressures and muzzle velocities.

    Great job on the test, good information presented in an easy to understand graph.
    Caylen Wojcik
    Magpul Dynamics
    Magpul Industries Corp.
    www.magpul.com www.magpuldynamics.com
    cwojcik@magpuldynamics.com

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    This test helps eliminate/greatly reduce one variable. Great job on trying to quantify marketing claims. The idea is to reduce variables one at a time.

    Stable, consistent velocity at any tempature, allows the shooter to concentrate on one of the many "next" variables such as the enviornmental effects on the bullet.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    I have found Varget to be very consistent in chronograph measured velocity over a wide range of temps--from 30F to 90F accuracy is not affected and the only dope compensation necessary is accounting for the air temperature.

  47. #47
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Anyone ever test Rl-17. Thinking of giving it a try, but heard it is a lot more temp sensitive.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    Interesting data. I'd like to see a list built up for more powders. It would be nice to know if I'll need a winter and a summer load for a particular powder before I start working up a load.

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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!


    Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson


    A "reasonably" stable propellant is naturally desirable.

    Marksmanship cannot be trumped by propellant stability.

    OCW method of tuning "the" load will help alleviate atmospheric changes.

    Is this horse rotten enough yet?

    +1 ... I know the atmospheric conditions during load testing and when I set zero. If there is a big swing in temperature from load testing then I take some shots noting any pressure signs and shift in POI. If pressure is an issue, then I look at alternatives. My point is you must take notes and the only thing a freezer at the range is good for is keeping the dead horse from rotting so you can kick it some more. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

    Jesus forgives ... but I don't forget.
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    Re: Temperature Stable Powder Test!!

    yep, one less variable. Of course, everyone knows that cold air is more dense than hot air... air at altitude is thinner than at sea level. That still has to be accounted for but, the correction is less with a bullet leaving the barrel at about the same velocity over the other variables.

    I use H1000 for my 300wm loadings. I love it and, it's just like reloading... make everything as consistant as possible. MV is one of those things that I can control so, that's just one less thing to worry about.

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