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Thread: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    just ordered a pound of the .5 micron
    I will let you know how it goes
    Bill

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Originally Posted By: Ted_D
    I found a Thumler Model T tumbler that I use to coat my bullets. It has a 3 lb drum and is just right for bullet coating. I use about 8 grains of hBN and tumble for 3 hours. The coating is hard to get off and is heavier than what most people do. I dont think 3 grains is enough.



    That looks nasty ! I can't see how that thin patchy coating is going to do much to reduce friction . I might be wrong as I have not experimented with HBN but I will stick with Moly disulphide .

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Originally Posted By: Country
    Originally Posted By: Ted_D
    I found a Thumler Model T tumbler that I use to coat my bullets. It has a 3 lb drum and is just right for bullet coating. I use about 8 grains of hBN and tumble for 3 hours. The coating is hard to get off and is heavier than what most people do. I dont think 3 grains is enough.



    That looks nasty ! I can't see how that thin patchy coating is going to do much to reduce friction . I might be wrong as I have not experimented with HBN but I will stick with Moly disulphide .



    Those were just out of the tumbler. I put them in a wool hunting sock and shake them and they polish right up. It does work.
    here are some finished E-Tips


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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    You can also polish the pills with shredded newspaper, put the pills back into the jar with the newspaper and tumble, but I perfer the old sock method
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I have comapred these to the TUBB 115 dtacs I have here and the Tubbs seem to have a HELL OF A LOT OF COATING ON THEM and there is a lot in the bottom of the box!!!

    may "sock" them prior to loading
    Bill

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Well, it turns out the steel ball bearing stock was the culprit for my "dirty" coated bullets. When I didn't have good results with the second batch of 100 using copperhead BBs, I blame the soft copper coating of the BBs that was coming right off. I went back to the drawing board and ordered some 3/16" 440C stainless steel balls (hardest stainless steel, 58-65 HRC) that came out of the bag clean and with a mirror polish. They did the trick! GREAT impact plating media, I highly recommend it. They

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Got the HBN yeesterday and used 2 old 1 lb powdeer bottles added 500 or so bb's then 10 to 12 gr of HBN for 250 bullets.
    put them in the vibrators for 30 min and you can already see the coating on the bullets. I think 1 hour more and they will be done so 2 hours total?

    the Bag of HBN looks like a Godfather movie a giant bag of coke. customes must have looked at it hard?
    thanks for all the help this is working great
    Bill

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I go 3 hours in a rotart tumbler

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    RussW sent me a little try out. I put 100 243 bullets in a small plastic jar and tumbled for 2 hours. Once wiped off they are an even frosty finish. However, since the stuff is white its hard to tell if it comes off when seating so I'm probably not going to wipe it off anymore.
    Less is more


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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I am going say 1 hour 30 min but in a vibrator that is more agressive
    Bill

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I bought the .5 micron and put 250 bullets and say 300 bb's in a used Hodgon H-1000 poweder bottle since the bb's were new I used 12 grains of HBN then put the two bottles in the vibrator for 30 min at 30 min not enough coating then went to 1 hours real nice but wanted a littel more so I am running 500 bullets thru in 1.5 hours.
    there coming out perfect, will be doing this to my 168 smk's and the 175 smk's along with 107 scenars

    Try it youll like it

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    How do you check if bullet is properly coated? I've tumbled them in "rotary tumbler" (used a barbecue device for it [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] ) and they were frosty with plenty of hBN on them, then i wiped them in the sock and they came out clean with darker surface (no usual scenar shine) however i'm unsure if they are properly coated (they are a bit more slippery - i think). As i understand the patent there should be only thin layer of hBN and not excess as that negatively affects accuracy however stuff being white and .5 micron how can one easily check for proper coating...

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    try using some steel bird shot
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I was never able to "successfully" coat my bullets with hBN.

    Instead of decreased pressure and velocity, my coated loads had the opposite effect: Increased velocity (with erratic SDs) and more pressure signs. I gave up on it because the results have baffled me, especially considering that it seemed to me that it was all getting scraped off when seating the bullets anyway. It is unfortunate too, as I have enough hBN to coat 10s of 1000s of bullets.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I use .17 steel BBs and after tumbling bullets do come out as they should (atleast compared to pics on the web) however without a microscope i wonder if there is a way to really check for proper coating.
    I coated gs custom bullets with boron (removed moly first) and they seemed ok though i wasn't able to test them properly as i've never fired them naked.

    Falar: That is the correct behavior if coated properly, there should be a speed increase (check some articles on boron) and first shot from the tube should be right on (if barrel pretreated). Increase in SD would indicate uneven coating - thats also my concern and why i'd like to check for proper coating - with moly and mds2 its easy as they are "black".

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Gentlemen, I am interested and curious to read and hear your experiences with hexagonal boron nitride bullet tumbling and polishing.

    My very limited google research finds boron nitride to be non-toxic, while providing a very slippery finish (much like moly coating).

    On the other hand boron nitride is supposedly the second hardest substance known to man (behind diamonds). While I can see how hBN bullets would help by making bullets more slippery I can't shake the thought that they may also be polishing your bores (a good thing for production barrels, not quite so sure that's a good thing in a custom barrel).

    While I would expect pressures to be lower with hBN and moly bullets has anyone borescoped or Stoney-Point checked their barrels to see what effect the bullets are doing to throats and lands?

    I've read where hBN coating the bolts and carriers of AR-style selfloaders is a good thing to keep them running, but I'm curious to see what happens after a few tens of thousands of cycles of very hard against 7075 aluminum.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Originally Posted By: Sharac
    I use .17 steel BBs and after tumbling bullets do come out as they should (atleast compared to pics on the web) however without a microscope i wonder if there is a way to really check for proper coating.
    I coated gs custom bullets with boron (removed moly first) and they seemed ok though i wasn't able to test them properly as i've never fired them naked.

    Falar: That is the correct behavior if coated properly, there should be a speed increase (check some articles on boron) and first shot from the tube should be right on (if barrel pretreated). Increase in SD would indicate uneven coating - thats also my concern and why i'd like to check for proper coating - with moly and mds2 its easy as they are "black".


    Everything I read about coating bullets said that pressure and velocity are supposed to be lowered by coating, requiring you to increase powder charge to get the same velocity with uncoated bullets.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/71...scription.html

    Quote:
    Summary of results

    20 uncoated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2368 feet per second and a maximum barrel temperature of 120° Fahrenheit. A first set of 20 boron nitride powder-coated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2732 feet per secondand a maximum barrel temperature of 138° Fahrenheit. A second set of 20 boron nitride powder-coated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2719 feet per second and a maximum barrel temperature of 150° Fahrenheit. The average gain inmuzzle velocity by coating rounds with boron nitride powder was 157 feet per second. The average gain in barrel temperature was 18° Fahrenheit.


    And also see at the end of the article....

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    would any of you guys be willing to sell off a little bit of you hbn i would like to give it a try

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Originally Posted By: Sharac
    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/71...scription.html

    Quote:
    Summary of results

    20 uncoated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2368 feet per second and a maximum barrel temperature of 120° Fahrenheit. A first set of 20 boron nitride powder-coated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2732 feet per secondand a maximum barrel temperature of 138° Fahrenheit. A second set of 20 boron nitride powder-coated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2719 feet per second and a maximum barrel temperature of 150° Fahrenheit. The average gain inmuzzle velocity by coating rounds with boron nitride powder was 157 feet per second. The average gain in barrel temperature was 18° Fahrenheit.


    And also see at the end of the article....



    This is where I got my bullet coating instructions.

    http://www.6mmbr.com/bulletcoating.html

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Regards,
    btm_54

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I hBN coated all my bullets last year. When I tried the same identical load with a coated 123 SMK and an uncoated bullet velocity was the same. I have not noticed the decrease in velocity effect which would mean your pressures are lower. Only thing I've noticed with hBN is that the barrel does not get dirty as quick. Shotting buddy of mine who works at Crane and shoots at Atterbury when I mentioned this agreed that it does nothing as they'd checked into it. I will probably continue to coat just casue I bought the stuff and at least makes me think my barrels will last longer but it seems to be more hype than anything.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    That is exactly why i'd like a way to easily check for proper coating since if one can't measure how can one tell if it's properly applied. I will go shoot on Friday to check if i can confirm all the reading i did on this matter in practice.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Originally Posted By: Heman
    I hBN coated all my bullets last year. When I tried the same identical load with a coated 123 SMK and an uncoated bullet velocity was the same. I have not noticed the decrease in velocity effect which would mean your pressures are lower. Only thing I've noticed with hBN is that the barrel does not get dirty as quick. Shotting buddy of mine who works at Crane and shoots at Atterbury when I mentioned this agreed that it does nothing as they'd checked into it. I will probably continue to coat just casue I bought the stuff and at least makes me think my barrels will last longer but it seems to be more hype than anything.


    Considering research at Crane is military and "most" military small arms have chrome lined barrels,the Patent explains that this process WILL NOT work with Chrome barrels.

    The whole idea is to have the ceramic media fill in the microscopic voids in the bore-

    "The dry ceramic such as boron nitride powder, in sub-micron size, can be manually rolled or burnished into the grain boundaries of a steel barrel or it can burnished by coating a bullet or other ammunition equipment prior to firing the gun,allowing the bullet to do the burnishing when it is fired. "

    "The sub-micron particles of boron nitride powder have no grain boundaries to hide in on achrome surface."

    It does however mention stainless steel barrels-"Because of very close grain boundaries in stainless steel gun barrels, the present invention is not as effective as in composite steel gun barrels"

    So does it REALLY work? I'll give it a try.(Using the smallest particles possible-the 70nM) Its good enough for David Tubbs [img]<>/grin.gif[/img]
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Im going to coat some bullets tonight using 70nm hBN, Ill post pics of my results.
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    For maximum effect, the first time before shooting the coated bullets, clean the bore to bare metal with copper solvent, then pre-treat the bore with a wet patch with hBn suspended in alcohol.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    As far as i understand the patent and an application the point of bullet coating is to introduce fresh hBN to the bore to replace that which bullets scrape off and to ensure there is a "micron" layer between jacket of a bullet and barrel steel.

    Sinister: hBN stands for hexagonal BN and there is also cubic BN which is what you are referring to. While one is similar to graphite the other is similar to diamond. In cBN molecules are cubes and nuclear ties extremly strong in every direction, hence it's hardness and use for coating drill/tool bits so introducing cBN into the bore would certainly yield very interesting results - just not the ones we'd hope for [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]. As for hBN its nuclear ties are strong only in vertical plane and molecules of hBN easily shear off in layers (lubrication effect).

    I tried hBN (70nm with 91% isopropyl alc) on my pistol and Saiga however both are so crude pieces i observed no difference in working so i guess i was just wasting my time. What i'm missing in this whole endeavor is an easy way to measure coating and if bullets are properly coated (don't have access to electron microscope to measure and see the bullets [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] ). I'll post on Friday after i shoot some freshly coated rounds with known load if there is any difference in speeds (i expect same accuracy if i manage to produce stable speeds - uneven application would IMHO produce larger variation in speeds hence lower accuracy) and if i did a proper job coating. Otherwise i think i will just ditch the whole coating business as it's too time consuming and i can't easily and objectively verify the process.


    PS: I coated a while ago GS custom bullets (removed moly first) and shot them in a 1km match (bad vertical good horizontal) and only thing i noticed later was that there was almost no copper in the barrel even after long wipeout session.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Well I'm still using it. Was just mentioning what I was told. If anything when I borescope my barrel I like seeing less copper in the barrel than without. So I'll keep doing it.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I was at the range today testing loads for a known load (155scenar) i got 45fps speed increase from uncoated load. Load is N140, 42,5gr and RWS primer, naked bullet shot on average 2535fps and same load with hBN coated bullet shot 2580fps.

    So i guess this stuff works as advertised however i haven't noticed any accuracy increase (or decrease [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] ).

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Its not supposed to increase accuracy, its supposed to lower friction, make cleaning easier and give better throat life.
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    i just orderd .5 micron do i need to call and have it changed to 70nm or is .5 ok .......5 is what they said is used for bullets but everyone i see is useing70nm? thanks [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Originally Posted By: Falar
    I was never able to "successfully" coat my bullets with hBN.

    Instead of decreased pressure and velocity, my coated loads had the opposite effect: Increased velocity (with erratic SDs) and more pressure signs. I gave up on it because the results have baffled me, especially considering that it seemed to me that it was all getting scraped off when seating the bullets anyway. It is unfortunate too, as I have enough hBN to coat 10s of 1000s of bullets.


    ill take that hbn off your hands if you are not going to use it!!!

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    These guys sell hBN for about half what Lower Friction does. Plus, they're in the US of A. But that's an introductory offer for prospective industrial clients so if you buy from them, don't make a lot of noise that you're a reloader and the one pound you're buying will last you and six of your buddies a lifetime.

    Originally Posted By: USMCj
    Its not supposed to increase accuracy, its supposed to lower friction, make cleaning easier and give better throat life.

    Bullet friction has almost no impact on throat life. Throat erosion is caused by --as Bryan Litz puts it -- the "blowtorch effect" of the burning charge and the 'sandblasting' of the gunpowder particulates being driven ahead of the flame front. If bullet friction were responsible, wear would occur down the entire length of the bore and wouldn't be so concentrated near the throat.

    But since hBN (or Moly or WS2) will reduce chamber pressures, it also will increase throat life slightly, if you leave it at that. However, if that's all you're into coating bullets for, you'd get the same benefit for less money and effort by just reducing the charge a by tenth or two.

    Originally Posted By: magman687
    i just orderd .5 micron do i need to call and have it changed to 70nm or is .5 ok .......5 is what they said is used for bullets but everyone i see is useing70nm? thanks [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]

    The .5 works just fine.

    Originally Posted By: sinister
    ...On the other hand boron nitride is supposedly the second hardest substance known to man (behind diamonds)....

    Being hard doesn't prevent something being a lubricant. After all, ball bearings are pretty hard, aren't they? There's other factors to consider as well.

    One trait carbon and boron nitride share is that both exist in multiple forms. Each form is suited to different uses. Carbon atoms arrayed cubically form diamonds. Carbon atoms arrayed in sheets form graphite. Carbon atoms lacking any ordered structure are either coal or soot. Similarly, cubic boron is harder than the dickens and a great abrasive. Hexagonal boron is slicker than owl snot and one of the best high-pressure lubricants known to man.

    The moral of this story is, don't try to write with a diamond, don't try to lubricate a door lock with coal, and don't coat your bullets with cubic boron nitride.

    Originally Posted By: Falar
    ...Everything I read about coating bullets said that pressure and velocity are supposed to be lowered by coating, requiring you to increase powder charge to get the same velocity with uncoated bullets.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Tag, interesting...

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    i have a question i am trying to coat some 25 cal bullets using a small jiff pb jar in my vib tumbler with daisy zinc plated bbs and the bullets done seem to be doing much tumbling in the bbs ive tried more bbs and ive tried less bbs and they just dont seem to want to tumble well and tips? should i just try to tumble them im the tumbler without the jar or would that hurt anything?

    also should i tumble with media in our out if i use the jar?

    thanks

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    ok another thing how easy should it be to rub off?

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    i dont think im doing somthing right my bullets look like this after 3 hours in the vib tumbler


    and after i used a sock to shack them off they look like they did before i even started what am i doing wrong?




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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    ohh and just a note in the pic i used 6000 bbs that was just after i took most of them out but before i did that i just used like 400 bbs to 50 bullets in a small pb jar

    but they just dont have a frosty look like i think they should

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    For the user to see it, is not the intention of the product . Not possible for you to see a Nano sized particle coating with your eyes .
    The largest majority of the Nano dry lube you are scraping-off the bullet when doing a little buff after the tumbling .
    But the 'sub-micron' sized particles that are left behind attached to the copper jacket surface is there . Just a matter of User trust but backed by hard science .
    It on the bullet jacket and it is in the micro-pours of the barrel Bore also if you have used it .
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    ty softcock...........wow that was odd to say :P

    so even though i dont have the wite frosty haze the others have your saying im still good to go right?

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    IT can be no where else .
    If you impact tumbled clean copper jacket bullets in hBN then it has to be there, in and on it's surface.
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I had the same worries as you have and what i've found is:

    1. Bullets must be clean (i spray them with engine degreaser)
    2. My rotary contraption (glass jar and pig turner) needs approx. 5hs to coat properly
    3. Scenars loose their shine and are darker color than they were
    4. Lockbases don't change their color i guess different jacket or something else but they also weren't as shiny as scenar when uncoated..

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    thanks for the tips [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    degreasing them now

    to see if that helps

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    Ok after 10 hours they look a Tad bit hazy. Ill post pics later today when I get home I used engine degreaser rinsed them very well and tumbled them directly in the drum of my hornady tumbler with 6000 bbs

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    You dried them properly and used gloves/didn't touch with your hands?

    I just simply wash them in a water then wipe them with a towel, spray with degreaser and use either fan or towel to dry and tumble. I did find that only water wasn't enough (shine remained) but without electron microscope being sure is not really possible...

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    I degrease the bullets with denatured alcohol. I use a rotary tumbler so I don't need the BBs. I put a box of bullets (50 or 100) in a 40-oz peanut butter jar, which fits snugly inside the drum of a Thumler Model-B (with the hi-speed motor) and tumble for two hours. The PB jar keeps the powder confined and limits the mess. hBN powder is white and leaves much less a mess than either Moly or WS2, which are black powders.



    L-R, hBN-coated SMK, WS2-coated SGK and nekkid Lapua Scenar (for comparison)

    What looks like tiny blue-ish spots are video artifacts from the digital camera. The actual coatings are smooth and uniform. In my experience, either hBN or WS2 are much more scratch-resistant than Moly.
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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    update i now have what i think is a good coat i went from

    this


    to
    this


    that look better to you all?

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    and one more thing the bbs dont smell like ammonia
    and the hnb dont smell like ammonia but after tumbleing them it smells strong of ammonia is that norm?

    and for pre treating the bore with hnb in alc. will i just need to wipe it out with a dry patch or will that rust my ss barrel do i need to patch then lube it as last step?

    thyanks for all your help so far it has helped me alot.

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    Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

    @ magman687,That batch looks really good,that is the way mine turn out.I just use a dedicated tumbler,cheap Frankford Arsenal with BB's.That even satin finish is what you are looking for.
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