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Thread: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

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    SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    OK,9 kinds of hell kinds of hell is probably about to be unleashed on me but somethings bugging me and i have to get it of my chest.i see alot of short barreled(18"-20") bolt action .308 rifles being buildt on here and i don't understand it.if only going to put a 18-20 inch barrel on,why not go semi auto.IMHO,22-24 inch barrel should be the shortest on a bolt gun.if i'm going for slower follow up shots,i at least would like a tad more velocity.the .308 is far from a hot rod as is.to me the .308 is nothing more than a compramise.it does alot of things good,does nothing great.so if i'm going to limit myself to a .308,i would want one,a gas gun with 18-20" barrel for multipul targets and quick follow ups,or a longer barrel 22-26 inch bolt gun so i could at least try and ring some performance out of the old war terd,ie .. longer seating depth or higher powder charge and no gas system robbing me of a few feet per second.to me a short barrel .308 bolt gun is the worst of both worlds.my flame suit is on,i'm ready to be thrashed now.just looking some opinions on where my logic is wrong.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Hang on while I grab a beer...

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    why not get the best of both?

    fast twist, tight bore, short barrel... compare a shorty with those requirements to a 24-26" tube... then come back & we'll talk
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I am going to have to somewhat agree with you. However, i know a lot of guys have a bolt gun that short to save on weight. There is quite a difference between 24" and 20", let alone 18".

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    weight difference... yes

    velocity/performance....not so much...
    TEAM AndiCapp

    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: johnnyDL
    to me a short barrel .308 bolt gun is the worst of both worlds.


    it may be the worst of both worlds to you but i have successfully hit a 21" target at 1500 yards with an 18" barreled 308 bolt gun. i didn't build it for that in fact, i intended the build for targets inside of 600 yards. i did shoot four long range matches (200-1000 yards) with it this year. i didn't do as good as i do with my 284 or 300 win mag but i did as good as i probably would have with a 24-26" 308.

    the match i built my 18" barreled for is a bolt action rifle match, not a semi-auto match. also, i just like bolt action precision rifles better than semi-autos. i think they shoot better more reliably.
    I might get drunk and rob a bank, shoot my car if it don't crank. Try to raise a little Cain, mess the walls up with some paint. Might even join a rodeo, ride my horse to Buffalo, change my name to Bill, I don't think I ever will But I can't promise you I won't. Some people do, some people don't.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I believe it has more to do with maneuverability, I have a 20” 308 and love it; I have taken it out to 1200yd without problems. After watching this year’s Sniper’s Hide Cup, I really saw the benefit of maneuverability. Guys with shorter barrels had a much easier time running through the bus than the guys with 26”+ guns then you attach a can to that, gets ridiculously long. YMMV

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I dunno about the merits of it...but man I have the itch for an 18" to run / gun in the woods. I want a shorty to maneuver easily, and scope it with a 2.5-10x NF so I can reach out if needed. I probably would never go further than 600, but it is nice to know that I can reliably go that far and further if ever needed / desired.
    “A plan is only good until the Battle is joined.” [Napoleon]

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    A few years ago when our dept started to obtain new bolt guns they bought 22" instead of the 24-26" they had. I know that's not 18-20" but the 2" difference is negligible.
    All are used exclusively in urban environment and moving in tight quarters was a concern.The 308 offers better barrel life than 300 win mag or 338lm and the ammo is cheaper.With that said I know they practice out to 800 yds monthly and the rifles perform just fine. Consistent body shots at that distance is all that is needed. With that said I realize this is mission specific and match shooting body shots may not be good enough. That's not to generalize that the equipment is no good though. With that said it's plenty good for hostage rescue work which IMHO is a good litmus test for accuracy.I'd have no problem using one of these to take a peel shot at 100 yds with 308 168gr match BTHP.
    "The God of War hates those who hesitate."
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    some great points,BUT,as far as being handy and quick handling,once again i say go gas gun(although i do agree with bolts being more reliable).with some of the newer ar-10,ar-25 designs i think reliability is getting close to bolt and getting damn near in accuracy.i think urban police departments and departments with 600meter and in requirements would also be best served with gas guns.the best reply so far for short barrel bolt guns is canning them.i can see where that would make total sense,a 26 incher with a can is getting quit long and un practical.i have a remmy 700 r5 with a 24" barrel,m24 contour that's handy enough and light enough to hunt with and walk through the woods but also produces descent MV's.thinking of canning it and trying some 208 amaxers.just trying to get some thoughts and opinions on these short barreled bolts versus' gas guns.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    my LTR shoots just as tight as my friends 26" 700 PSS. I mainly went with the LTR to save on weight and space. I know I'll never be shooting at great distances so I didn't see the need for a long tube.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I dont give up anything from a performance standpoint with my 20". So, why not?
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    My grandfather who owned and loved several sporterized Mauser's and Winchester M70's would roll over in his grave if he heard of any one putting a barrel shorter than 24" on a "rifle". Carbines have short barrels. (Him speaking not me though I some what agree seaming how I got my taste in firearms from him). He also said something to the effect that anything smaller than a "o6" was for women lol.
    If I wanted a short barrel I personaly would go with a leaver action.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    After years of building rifles in different configurations, some BIG name gun plumbers have found out the optimum barrel length for the .308 is 20". No idea why, or how. Just one of those things. If you need the extra 2-6" to make your shots and are comfortable with a longer barrel then by all means go for it. Different strokes and all.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    i think many people are missing the op's question. if you are going to go with a short barrel 308, why choose a bolt action over a semi-auto.
    I might get drunk and rob a bank, shoot my car if it don't crank. Try to raise a little Cain, mess the walls up with some paint. Might even join a rodeo, ride my horse to Buffalo, change my name to Bill, I don't think I ever will But I can't promise you I won't. Some people do, some people don't.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: johnnyDL
    some great points,BUT,as far as being handy and quick handling,once again i say go gas gun(although i do agree with bolts being more reliable).with some of the newer ar-10,ar-25 designs i think reliability is getting close to bolt and getting damn near in accuracy.i think urban police departments and departments with 600meter and in requirements would also be best served with gas guns.the best reply so far for short barrel bolt guns is canning them.i can see where that would make total sense,a 26 incher with a can is getting quit long and un practical.i have a remmy 700 r5 with a 24" barrel,m24 contour that's handy enough and light enough to hunt with and walk through the woods but also produces descent MV's.thinking of canning it and trying some 208 amaxers.just trying to get some thoughts and opinions on these short barreled bolts versus' gas guns.


    I guess I'm having a problem with you saying a gas gun with a short barrel is perfectly okay but you can't have the same barrel length on a bolt gun?

    Hands down I prefer to shoot a bolt gun over a gasser. Just my opinion though.

    Seems like lately everyone want to bash shorter barrels or just question them to death. I don't think all short barrel owners have just one rifle. Even if they did they know the limitations and the benefits of said rifle.
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How come the boc stock .5 MOA rifles with their .5 MOA owners never show up to play anywhere but on the internets ? </div></div>

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I have a 20" FN SPR A1a for LE work and am almost done with my 18" gas .308. I love my 20" bolt gun but have not shot out too far with it but at 100 I got a .43" group with it. When my gas gun is running Ill have to crono both and see what type of loss I have.

    AS far as an 18" bolt gun Im tempted to get the 700 5R and cut it to 18" just S&G.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Sorter barrels are also stiffer and are cooler so you can fire more shots without the barrel heating up.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: 300sniper
    i think many people are missing the op's question. if you are going to go with a short barrel 308, why choose a bolt action over a semi-auto.


    COST!!!

    You looked into a very accurate AR-10 lately.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: flyboy
    Originally Posted By: 300sniper
    i think many people are missing the op's question. if you are going to go with a short barrel 308, why choose a bolt action over a semi-auto.


    COST!!!

    You looked into a very accurate AR-10 lately.


    +1
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Why not own both?. I will admit that for me the Ar platforms made a lot more hunting trips and kills this year than the bolts.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Enlighten yourself.

    http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

    Read and believe.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    i also think the cost and avalibility of many diferent actions and accesories like stocks to fit a rifle to suit your requirements. AAlso it is easier to teach someone to shoot a bolt rifle accurately than a semi auto. also with positional shooting the bolt rifles are more forgiving to bad holds you might have to use to make a shot. about the barrel length most would run the same barrel length on an AR10 to there comp spec bolt rifles.

    Also the 308 realy is a medium range calibre realy works well to 800 yards and you dont loose to much for tacticel purposes going to 18" and if you want to go for a long range rifle past 1000 yards diferent calibres are prefered and then get a 26" plus barrel because you usualy are in a stationary position taking long shots.

    AR 10's are limited in there availability and options not many left hand actions available compared to bolt guns and the big thing is most people can buy a 308 bolt gun and chop the barrel get a small amount of work done and for well under a grand they have a gun to start shooting tacticle matches with, this is without optics because that is the same with either platform.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    for a given diameter the shorter you go the stiffer it is.
    so there is an expectation of less barrel whip and possabily better groups with the shorter pipe.
    the thing is all barrels are different and by the time you buy crown shoot, cut recrown shoot, ... it gets hard to back up to to the best choice for any particular tube.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    and more people not actually reading tho op's question [img]<>/grin.gif[/img]
    I might get drunk and rob a bank, shoot my car if it don't crank. Try to raise a little Cain, mess the walls up with some paint. Might even join a rodeo, ride my horse to Buffalo, change my name to Bill, I don't think I ever will But I can't promise you I won't. Some people do, some people don't.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I do not have a .308 chopped to 18", but I do own a .22-250 at 18.5". As far as velocity is concerned, I do not know what kind I have lost due to the shorter barrel. When I cut the barrel, I was wanting a handy "truck rifle" and this is the only rifle I had that was a viable candidate.

    To make a long story short, the little rifle shoots around .75" with a factory tube. As a note, it is an A-series ADL that had a few miles on it. I am quite satisfied with the short barrel in this application- it is handy and accurate.

    I have a SA Remington with a PSS takeoff barrel that will soon be clipped to 18". I am looking forward to seeing the results.
    Me: I got my new Bartlein barrel
    My Brother: How much?
    Me: $350.
    My Brother: $350!!! That's expensive.
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    My Brother: I don't buy barrels. I shoot a .308.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Short barrel suppressed make sense. The days of running extra barrel for velocity gains and marginal improved performance has been made obsolete by better chamberings and purpose built cartridges.

    A bolt action with a short barrel suppressed makes a lot more sense than a semi with a short barrel suppressed regarding .308 chamberings. Why's that? HEAT. The bolt gun will remain cooler longer. Both can be run proficiently at the same volume of fire when in the hands of an experienced user. The semi will heat up faster causing reliability or accuracy issues, or both.

    The Semi offers no advantage, only disadvantages now that bolt guns are being equipped with detachable mag systems.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    The biggest problem we saw when we tried to go with KAC SR-25's was getting used to driving that system.We had accuracy problems from day one and could never get them figured out.Not to say it was just the equipment,ammo or operator.We had a bunch of guys who could shoot the piss out of .223 AR's and bolt guns. They struggled to get consistent accuracy out of the .308.Tried different ammo and different operators.The rifles,for whatever reason,would be sub MOA one minute then 1 MOA + the next.One big problem was shooting bonded tactical ammo thru the gas gun.It definately messed with POI (inconsistent).Bolt guns seem to tolerate the different ammo better(more predictable POI).Finally gave up and traded them for more bolt guns.The idea was giving your spotter the follow up shot with a platform that was every bit as accurate as the primary shooter plus semi auto.Just couldn't trust them in the end.They were beasts too, very heavy.
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I think given the platform you would be surprised at how accurate you can get with a gas gun. The boys at GAP have proven that to be the case with the 16" AR10 that Frank runs with. I am shooting a LMT MWS308 today that was a 16" barrel and while yes it heats up quite a bit faster then my bolt guns it still performs. I did a sight in and tracking test with 20 shots then turned around and did some 600 yard shots with another 20. accuracy was not affected in those 40 rounds....

    Its give and take depending on your platform.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: johnnyDL
    OK,9 kinds of hell kinds of hell is probably about to be unleashed on me but somethings bugging me and i have to get it of my chest.i see alot of short barreled(18"-20") bolt action .308 rifles being buildt on here and i don't understand it.if only going to put a 18-20 inch barrel on,why not go semi auto.IMHO,22-24 inch barrel should be the shortest on a bolt gun.if i'm going for slower follow up shots,i at least would like a tad more velocity.the .308 is far from a hot rod as is.to me the .308 is nothing more than a compramise.it does alot of things good,does nothing great.so if i'm going to limit myself to a .308,i would want one,a gas gun with 18-20" barrel for multipul targets and quick follow ups,or a longer barrel 22-26 inch bolt gun so i could at least try and ring some performance out of the old war terd,ie .. longer seating depth or higher powder charge and no gas system robbing me of a few feet per second.to me a short barrel .308 bolt gun is the worst of both worlds.my flame suit is on,i'm ready to be thrashed now.just looking some opinions on where my logic is wrong.


    Originally Posted By: SgtKope
    I am going to have to somewhat agree with you. However, i know a lot of guys have a bolt gun that short to save on weight. There is quite a difference between 24" and 20", let alone 18".


    drum roll please......






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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    JohnnyDL: you should check out the services offered by the gunsmiths over at AWC Systems. These guys do great work, just got my shortend by them. It was originally 26 in. and now its 18.5, don't have any regrets going the short barrel route. Those guys preach the short barrel ways. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    my reason was as simple as it gets.

    no gas guns in Australia, hahahhahaahha

    as for 308, sure there are better rounds, but find one that is
    1, as available
    2, cheap
    3, easy to reload

    (all subjective i spose as these facts are for me, here in aus)

    i got a 20 inch rem 308, compared to my 24 inch howa, its 100% easer to handle, and the balance point is where my resting hand rests on the forstock, for freeehand shots, as apposed to holding almost the swivel stud up front to balance the howa.lol

    i dont think anyone will debate there are technicaly better rounds for LR shooting either. but the 308 with a short barrel is just fine im my opinion, and the pros outway the cons for short barrels for me also,

    cheers lads, jimi

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    i personally have owned a 26 inch pss andi own a ltr and both shoot less than 3/8 of an inch with factory ammo.and as far as a20 inch barrel goes the marines are supposed to switch to a 20 incher going by the military channels ultimate weapons show last year.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I have 308 semis and bolts with different lengths - GAP SASS with a 20", DPMS AP4 with a 16", GAP M40A3 with a 25", and now I am getting a RWS with a 19.5". All I can say is the barrel length did not affect accuracy and the only thing I could tell is the shorter barrels didn't crony as high in FPS and that makes sense. But that didn't change the accuracy only the point of impact. I think it has been proven on here that the shorter barrels are just as accurate as the long ones. I am not a gunsmith and I am sure they could chime in with some science involved.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: Supa_Fly
    why not get the best of both?
    fast twist, tight bore, short barrel... compare a shorty with those requirements to a 24-26" tube... then come back & we'll talk

    Which increases presure. No free lunch. no magic. The same load in a longer "match" barrel is likely to be faster or at lower pressures.


    Originally Posted By: gugubica
    I dont give up anything from a performance standpoint with my 20". So, why not?

    In many guns, with many loads the slower speeds are enough to make the gun far less accurate. You may still hit "stuff" but the difference is often enough to not know if the miss was you or the lack of accuracy. Guys trying to get MOA or under are different from trying for double this.


    Originally Posted By: ranger1183
    Enlighten yourself.
    http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/
    Read and believe.

    I'm very "Enlighten" and would not consider using a short barrel past 700-800 but I aim for MOA or smaller, shoot under all local conditions, load to reasonable pressures, know that many barrels won't do this, can change projectiles, powder, know I might need to reach a top node for best accuracy and a short barrel is often not able to do this (see above). I want my guns to be supersonic with every load, at all ranges and conditions I shoot in.
    "Match" barrels are more likely to do this and that's another important factor.


    A 155 Scenar @ 2770 (about "normal") is doing 1159fps at 1k. That is at or BELOW the speed sound. You are in the zone where one projectile is above, one below. Instant accuracy loss. There is no doubt projectiles in this range of speeds WILL be less accurate. I like accuracy. I want my equipment to be more accurate than me so I know misses are my fault [img]<>/wink.gif[/img]

    Rather than everyone jumping on something popular we should understand what's going on, where we might end up and what we give up. If it fits our use then there is no problem. If you are aiming for 18 inch targets at 800-1k then being borderline subsonic is probably not a problem. Once you are trying for MOA, 1/2MOA it is an issue and I have yet to see anyone factually argue there is no accuracy loss.

  36. #36
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    hmmm...

    Factory Remington LTR (20"), shooting a 155 scenar at 2850fps (very reasonable load), and holding MOA or better at distance (out to 1050yds)...

    I guess it just ain't gonna cut it...
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    I prefer a shorter barreled bolt gun.

    1) The secret pagan inside of me revels in the sacrifice to the gods of hunting in the more personal experience of manually operating the action when going after a critter.

    2) I enjoy target shooting with a bolt gun. It is built to exactly my specifications using parts I hand selected and then had an expert put together.

    3) I have (hopefully) zero use for this bolt gun in a defensive capacity. If I am in the middle of colorado repelling an invasion as part of a local militia or some such, then i will suffer the consequence at that time and will utilize my other firearms more suited to the purpose. And frankly at that point, we would all be screwed [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] Plus, I will get a lot of joy out of the fact that Kalifornistan had to fight first.

    4) I hate cleaning gas guns. I love to shoot them but hate to clean them.

    5) Money. Holy hell i can spend a lot of money down the barrel of a semi auto in 308. In the same time, I fire less rounds but still enjoy the experience every bit as much with my bolt gun.

    6) The experience. I tend to have MUCH more discipline with my fundamentals behind the trigger of a bolt gun. My mental mindset is at fault here clearly but I take things slower and work on being smooth with the bolt and the trigger.

    Our fine folks in LE and the Military have different needs than mine that make a precision semi auto a no-brainer in comparison but for my needs, I will take a $3-4k bolt gun every day of the week and twice on sundays over a gas gun if I have to choose only one. Better option: Own both!

    Oddball-Six-Actual.

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship..." - Alexander Tytler (Often mis-attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville)

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Originally Posted By: clc33
    i personally have owned a 26 inch pss andi own a ltr and both shoot less than 3/8 of an inch with factory ammo.and as far as a20 inch barrel goes the marines are supposed to switch to a 20 incher going by the military channels ultimate weapons show last year.


    I need to start shopping where you shop.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    It seems like nearly every .308 gas gun I see has cycling issues. The more they are designed for accuracy the more that seems to be the case. Of course some run fine but that is not the majority IMO.

    I will admit I can't stand autos generally and would only grab one if the zombies were in full attack. Gas guns are great if you have lots of targets, otherwise leave them at home.

    Rifle weight is a personal preferance, but I see many guns here that are needlessly heavy. Then again, 90% of the guns here are range guns where
    portability is a non-issue. I have some heavy rifles myself.

    Day in day out bolt guns are more accurate. Slightly slower bullets are not causing misses.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    20" sps 1/4 to 1/2 at 100. Have 155 scenars at 2800 will be testing up to 1k pretty soon I will chime back in with results. tossed this around a lot myself however, if im trying to go past 1k on a regular basis might have to build a 338 rum. or just go with 300 win mag and deal with a longer barrel where it needs to be

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    short barrel stiffer, lighter, handier, can friendlier, and tacti-kool-ier. chicks dig it.
    dhs wants to put ther dik in our arse, thanks obama!

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    You're not actually giving up anything with a short barreled bolt gun to a semi-auto. If you've been through any of the courses at Rifles Only, Gunsite, etc., you will find out how efficient you can be at running a bolt gun. In my opinion, the short barreled .308 bolt gun is the best of all worlds. There are guys I know that are in a position to depend on their rifles and have a choice between the bolt and the semi. They typically choose the bolt gun over the semi for most all of what they do.
    Mike
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    "It Takes More Than Accuracy To Make A Rifle Interesting" (M. Bush)

    Infidel : (BlackOps Precision Translation)
    1. Any well trained, patriotic and contributory American Citizen that says little and stands hard against those that target the United States. An Infidel will also not hesitate to protect the sheepish, complacent population of the United States that chooses to believe that a well armed society is unnecessary.

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    The ONLY advantage I see to a semi-auto is speed, but that is only a second or two quicker than the bolt. A good knob and proficient practice can greatly increase your reload speed. Glad this guy didn't have a semi-auto
    Rem 700 blueprinted, Kenny Johnson Barrel w/Blackstar, Shilen trigger 2lbs

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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Many can shoot an AR15 pert good

    AR10 with its heavy bolt carrier group really accentuates triple recoil pulse.....many never master

    Bolt gun has no issue
    But even with a standard length barrel the ole war horse is not know for its flat shooting.

    Short barrels ROCK
    especially in 6mm and 6.5

    I Finally put my 308 to pasture RIP
    Replaced with a 20" 6.5x47, 123 skinny @ 2900fps
    @1k runs right with my old HOT 308 load 26-27MOA

    So i gave up no downrange performance to speak off
    yet have a lighter more portable package with less recoil.

    Your ideal solution would be 20" AR15 243wssm
    http://www.6mmar.com/Page_1.html
    more ideas along your thinking should you lose 308 as option

    We are asked not to judge all muslims by the acts of a few extremists,
    but we are encouraged to judge all gun owners by extreme acts of the few
    .

  45. #45
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    Re: SHORT BARREL .308 BOLT GUNS?

    Why is a short barreled bolt gun better? For what I do the gas gun gives me no advantage and too many disadvantages. Bolt guns are easier to shoot well and easier to tailor loads for, especially with the slower powders. And they don't beat-up my brass.