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Thread: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

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    5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Ammunition:
    Hornady 5.56 NATO TAP
    http://www.hornadyle.com/products/de...p?id=72&sID=75

    Rifle:
    Remington XCR Compact Tactical .223
    http://www.remington.com/products/firear...ct_tactical.asp

    -I have been told that Remington .223s have relatively long throats.
    -I cycled a few 5.56 rounds and squinted at the bullet ogives after that for evidence that it hit the lands/grooves. No marks.
    -I smoke tested 3 rounds with no ill effects (still have 2 eyes, all my teeth and a visually intact rifle).

    I have a lot of this for my 1:7 AR. I figure this relatively heavy, fast ammunition will be good for longer shots from the Remington too. I ran the Miller stability formula and came up with 1.39, so it should fly true out of this 1:9 barrel.

    Questions:
    -Does anyone have experience with 5.56 ammunition through a Remington .223.
    -Is running significant amounts of this ammo through this rifle a Bad Idea?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    As a rule no, dont run 5.56 in a 223.

    The reverse is fine.

    Its not the dimensions as much as the pressure you have to worry about.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    JL, to add to your post, the pressure problems ARE caused by chamber dimensions.

    SAAMI specs .223 Rem at 55 ksi and NATO specs the 5.56 at just over 62 ksi in their respective chambers. A traditional .223 Rem chamber has a throat length of about .045" while the NATO chamber has a throat length of about .164". When a 62 ksi NATO cartridge is fired in a .223 Rem chamber with the short throat, the bullet engages the rifling earlier than it does under qualification conditions. This causes the ACTUAL chamber pressure to be much higher than it was when tested in a NATO long-throat chamber.

    The issue at hand here is, will Remington's longer-than-normal .223 throat replicate the results of a NATO chamber? I don't know the answer because I don't know anyone who has pressure tested a NATO round in a Remington .223 chamber to see if it stays at or below the normal 62 ksi max. Anyone know a Remington engineer?

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Not an engineer but a 700 short action as used in the XCR is most often chambered in 308 and can be chambered in 300WSM either of which I would assume produce much more chamber pressure than a 223 or 5.56 would they not?

    If we were speaking in terms of an AR platform I would agree but I think the 700 short action can handle it.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    I blew primers when I tried to shoot 5.56 in my .223 sporter. The same cartridges shot fine in my AR.

    There is a difference.

    Good luck

    Jerry

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Let's see, a quick search shows SAAMI .308 pres at 62 ksi and .300 WSM at 65 ksi. I think we're still on the fence with this one.

    At least the chamber walls are thicker with the .223 chamber than the .308; that'll make the chamber rupture pressure higher.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Is it a .223 Remington or a .223 Wylde chamber? With Wylde you can shoot both the standard .223 Remington and the 5.56 NATO. It was designed as a compromise between the NATO and commerical chambering.
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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    The main difference between 5.56 NATO and the .223 Remington is the leade, the area between the mouth of the case and the beginning of the rifling and the shape of the bullet used. The smaller difference is the higher pressure of the 5.56 NATO round. The next smaller difference is the actual size of the chamber itself. Let's take these things one at a atime.

    5.56 NATO (US M855) is loaded with one specific bullet, a 62gr FMJ bullet with a 10gr steel penetrator in the tip. This bullet is also known as an SS109 in other countries and it was first developed by FN in the 1980s to defeat light body armor. The shape of the ogive is such that the loaded round can tough the rifling when chambered and this is not a good thing; touching the rifling before ignition time will increase the pressure as the bullet does not have a chance to move before engraving into the lands. There are certain shapes that benefit from being chambered into the lands, this is not one of them.

    If you can chamber the cartridge after painting the bullet black with a marker and you see NO marks on the bullet when you extract the unfired round, then you know that your chamber may be suitable for this exact round. If there are indications that the bullet is touching the lands, you will most probably experience additional pressure.

    The 5.56 NATO round is indeed loaded to higher pressures compared to a SAAMI .223 round, but so what? I load my .223 Remington to higher pressures than SAAMI and my LR match ammo is hotter than a NATO round. To think there are differences between AR receivers depending on whether it's chambered in SAAMI or NATO just means you do not know what you are talking about. There are no such things as NATO bolts and SAAMI bolts, or bolt carrier or upper or what not. The only difference is the chamber itself, in the way it is cut. The same thing applies to current production bolt rifles.

    Comparing the pressure of a .308 to the pressure of a .223/5.56 is a little more complex that just looking at the PSI values. You will probably notice that the .308 cartridge is a little bigger than the .223/5.56 cartridge. So you need to apply the PSI figure to a greater surface which means the total work done by the pressure is greater with a larger cartridge than with a smaller cartridge. This is why you can shoot a 150gr .30 cal bullet with the same PSI in a .308 as you can shoot a 62gr .22 cal bullet in a 5.56 cartridge, at about the same velocities.

    So, if the same bolt can handle the .308 it should have no problem handling the 5.56NATO.

    One last thing on chamber size; the 5.56 NATO chamber is cut larger not just longer than the .223 Remington. This is to account for the variations in NATO ammo and to address the need to chamber and fire a round in what can be extreme circumstances. The looser chamber somewhat reduces the pressure at firing. The .223 Remington have tighter chambers and the same cartridge can and will produce higher pressures. You can also do the same with different brass. A hot load developed in the thin LC cases, pierces primers when used in a commercial Winchester or Lapua case in the same rifle. Been there, done that.

    So, what's the bottom line in the current thread?
    It's up to the OP. I would never use 5.56 NATO ammo in any of my .223 rifles, because it's garbage ammo. I handload my ammo, to higher pressures and I use longer bullets that the M855 bullet. My match rifle has a tight chamber, but with a long leade for the long bullets I use. I have ARs with Wylde chambers for reliable rapid fire (the Wylde chamber is a little looser than the .223 Match chamber,) not for shooting the 5.56 NATO crap.

    If I had a nice bolt action chambered in .223, I would develop a load that would work perfectly in it and one of the development steps is measuring the chamber with the bullet would want to use.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    75-grain 5.56 TAP is the OP's ammo, not M855.

    Is bolt failure more common than ruptured chambers in overpressure situations? When you say "work", I assume you mean "force" or F=P*A. Work is usually force*distance.

    You don't happen to know exactly what chamber Remmy uses in their .223-labeled tactical 700s do you?

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    The ONLY 5.56 NATO cartridge is the M855 and other countries' equivalent. This may well be the reason the TAP does not touch the rifling.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Best to treat this like load development.

    Is the bullet touching the lands?
    After firing:
    Is the bolt stiff to open?
    Are the primers really flat?
    Is the brass bleeding into the ejector?
    Does the brass eject cleanly?

    If the first 4 are no and the last one is yes, then it should probably be safe to shoot (for you, in that gun). You have to make that determination on your own as you are the one taking the risk.
    2nd shot hits....most of the time.


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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Originally Posted By: GreatGonzo
    Best to treat this like load development.

    Is the bullet touching the lands?
    After firing:
    Is the bolt stiff to open?
    Are the primers really flat?
    Is the brass bleeding into the ejector?
    Does the brass eject cleanly?

    If the first 4 are no and the last one is yes, then it should probably be safe to shoot (for you, in that gun). You have to make that determination on your own as you are the one taking the risk.


    Sounds good!

    Originally Posted By: Sig685
    The ONLY 5.56 NATO cartridge is the M855 and other countries' equivalent. This may well be the reason the TAP does not touch the rifling.


    Have you looked at these?
    http://www.hornadyle.com/products/de...p?id=72&sID=75
    http://www.winchester.com/Products/r...ges/Q3131.aspx
    http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/...%2BJDyOLrQE%3D

    Not to mention all of these:
    Cartridge, Ball, F1 (Australia): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent produced by Australian Defence Industries(ADI), now Thales Australia.
    Cartridge, Blank, F3 (Australia): 5.56x45mm Blank cartridge produced by Australian Defence Industries(ADI), now Thales Australia.
    Cartridge, Ball, C77 (Canada): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent used in both C7, C8 and C9 type weapons.
    Cartridge, Blank, C79 (Canada): 5.56x45mm blank cartridge used in both C7, C8 and C9 type weapons.
    Cartridge, Ball, DM11 (Germany): 5.56x45mm 4.1 g dual core ball cartridge, green tip w/steel core, produced by RUAG Ammotech.
    Cartridge, Tracer, DM21 (Germany): 5.56x45mm tracer compliment to DM11, also produced by RUAG Ammotech.
    Cartridge, Ball, L2A1 (United Kingdom): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent produced by Radway Green.
    Cartridge, Tracer, L1A1 (United Kingdom): 5.56x45mm tracer compliment to L2A1, also produced by Radway Green.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193 (United States): 5.56x45mm 55-grain ball cartridge.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M195 (United States): 5.56x45mm grenade launching blank.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M196 (United States): 5.56x45mm 54-grain tracer cartridge, red cartridge tip.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M202 (United States): 5.56x45mm 58-grain FN SSX822 cartridge
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM287 (United States): 5.56x45mm 68-grain ball cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM779.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM288 (United States): 5.56x45mm 68-grain tracer cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM780.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M755 (United States): 5.56x45mm grenade launching blank specifically for the M234 launcher.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM777 (United States): 5.56x45mm ball cartridge.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM778 (United States): 5.56x45mm tracer cartridge.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 (United States): 5.56x45mm 62-grain FN SS109 ball cartridge, green tip w/steel penetrator and a lead core.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 Lead Free (United States):62-grain green tip w/tungsten penetrator and a steel core. Primarily used during training in countries with strict lead disposal laws.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856 (United States): 5.56x45mm 64-grain FN L110 tracer cartridge
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Armor Piercing, M995 (United States): 5.56x45mm 52-grain AP cartridge, black cartridge tip.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM996 (United States): 5.56x45mm so-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1 (United States): 5.56x45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.
    Cartridge, 5.64 mm, Ball, MLU-26/P (United States): Early USAF designation for 5.56x45mm ball cartridge produced by Remington.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    Originally Posted By: Tactical Rancher
    Originally Posted By: Sig685
    The ONLY 5.56 NATO cartridge is the M855 and other countries' equivalent. This may well be the reason the TAP does not touch the rifling.


    Have you looked at these?
    http://www.hornadyle.com/products/de...p?id=72&sID=75
    http://www.winchester.com/Products/r...ges/Q3131.aspx
    http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/...%2BJDyOLrQE%3D

    Yes, I have. Just because they say NATO does not make them NATO standard cartridges.

    Quote:

    Not to mention all of these:
    Cartridge, Ball, F1 (Australia): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent produced by Australian Defence Industries(ADI), now Thales Australia.
    Cartridge, Blank, F3 (Australia): 5.56x45mm Blank cartridge produced by Australian Defence Industries(ADI), now Thales Australia.
    Cartridge, Ball, C77 (Canada): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent used in both C7, C8 and C9 type weapons.
    Cartridge, Blank, C79 (Canada): 5.56x45mm blank cartridge used in both C7, C8 and C9 type weapons.
    Cartridge, Ball, DM11 (Germany): 5.56x45mm 4.1 g dual core ball cartridge, green tip w/steel core, produced by RUAG Ammotech.
    Cartridge, Tracer, DM21 (Germany): 5.56x45mm tracer compliment to DM11, also produced by RUAG Ammotech.
    Cartridge, Ball, L2A1 (United Kingdom): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent produced by Radway Green.
    Cartridge, Tracer, L1A1 (United Kingdom): 5.56x45mm tracer compliment to L2A1, also produced by Radway Green.

    Geez, I would guess this would fall under the category of "other countries' equivalent." You will notice they all use the SS109, which I described earlier. I do not believe the tracers and blank firing cartridges are actually NATO standards, but it does not matter for this thread.


    Quote:

    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193 (United States): 5.56x45mm 55-grain ball cartridge.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M195 (United States): 5.56x45mm grenade launching blank.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M196 (United States): 5.56x45mm 54-grain tracer cartridge, red cartridge tip.

    These are US Military cartridges in use before NATO acceptance of the 5.56 cartridge, so these are not NATO cartridges.

    Quote:

    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M202 (United States): 5.56x45mm 58-grain FN SSX822 cartridge
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM287 (United States): 5.56x45mm 68-grain ball cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM779.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM288 (United States): 5.56x45mm 68-grain tracer cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM780.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M755 (United States): 5.56x45mm grenade launching blank specifically for the M234 launcher.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM777 (United States): 5.56x45mm ball cartridge.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM778 (United States): 5.56x45mm tracer cartridge.

    The above do not have a 62gr bullet (SS109 type), so they are not NATO standard.

    Quote:

    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 (United States): 5.56x45mm 62-grain FN SS109 ball cartridge, green tip w/steel penetrator and a lead core.

    You finally got the one true 5.56 NATO round.

    Quote:

    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 Lead Free (United States):62-grain green tip w/tungsten penetrator and a steel core. Primarily used during training in countries with strict lead disposal laws.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856 (United States): 5.56x45mm 64-grain FN L110 tracer cartridge
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Armor Piercing, M995 (United States): 5.56x45mm 52-grain AP cartridge, black cartridge tip.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM996 (United States): 5.56x45mm so-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices.
    Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1 (United States): 5.56x45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.
    Cartridge, 5.64 mm, Ball, MLU-26/P (United States): Early USAF designation for 5.56x45mm ball cartridge produced by Remington.


    None of these use the 62gr SS109 type bullet, so they are not NATO standard cartridges.

    BTW, I love your screen name, now if I can only figure out the tactical part.

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    Re: 5.56 ammunition in a .223 bolt gun?

    I think you jumped to a conclusion after not fully reading the OP and now feel like you have to defend your strict definition.

    The original intent was evaluation of the cartridge "labeled" Hornady 5.56 NATO TAP in a Remmy XCR Compact Tactical rifle chambered in .223. I think we have that issue covered now.