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Thread: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

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    cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    i am definitely not a well renown gunsmith. I am self taught and know the things I do by experience and many mistakes have led to greater successes. something I would like to address is the ongoing argument that a cut rifled barrel is superior to its button rifled counter part. I have used nearly all the top makers in custom rifle blanks and I do have my favorites. like the major players here I push my favorites when asked but I do realize that a hummer or bummer could come from any of them. I see more and more of the resident smiths here pushing cut barrels but I have yet to see ANY evidence as to their superiority. I used to be a die hard benchmark fan. they always got blanks to me in a very timely manner and their price was quite fair. I have had great luck with their blanks. pac-nor, believe it or not, has probably been the most consistently accurate for me. rock creek has been outstanding. shilen is tried and true and I have never had a bad blank from them. broughton is exceptional in every respect. there is a reason bartlein is in the winners circle (I just don't know what it is.) I have very limited experience with brux but the barrel I have on hand I expect good things from. hart has been great and they used to win all the marbles. lastly, Krieger. I know a LOT of you guys swear by them and they are VERY GOOD, BUT, the least accurate .308 I have ever built wears a Krieger 1-12 mtu. its a solid shooting rifle and stays around 1/2 moa out to 600yds for the most part. I guess I just expect a good .308 to shoot better than that out to 300yds anyway. I have heard guys say the cut rifled barrels out last the button rifled. how many people here have worn out a good number of each to quantify that statement? not many I am sure. I just cant imagine anything wearing any better than a 3-groove pac-nor or benchmark! anyway, what is boils down to for me is that I am confident in getting a good, accurate barrel from any of the major makers these days and if i get a bad one it is definitely the exception and not the norm. don't be led to believe that you need a particular barrel brand to make the best rifle you have ever had. I still have buddies who refuse to let me use anything but brand xxxx.......if they only knew! maybe someone here who has used hundreds of each can chime in and let us all know why they believe one to be better than the other. some tangible evidence would be helpful as well.

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I dont think that anybody is capable of shooting to the level that 95%of the aftermarket barrels are capable of shooting.

    One of the most accurate guns ive owned was a Douglas barreled 1-12 twist 6mmBR , it would shoot 55g Ballistic tips into 1" consistently at 300yds , this is a 24" #4 barrel on a tuned Savage action bedded in a Duramaxx stock!!

    I have a 300 win mag with a Krieger barrel that shoots 1/2moa most of the time

    I still prefer cut rifled barrels over buttoned because I find that they are less finicky , ive gotten barrels from Rock , Bartlein , Krieger , and brux that were all hammers as I have from Hart , Shilen , PacNor and as mentioned Douglas. BUT , I still prefer cut rifled barrels

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    what is it about a cut rifled barrel that could possibly make it "less finicky"? I do find that some chamberings are indeed less finicky than others but I find this has nothing to do with the barrel being cut or button rifled!

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Hey Chuck,
    I agree that all the barrel makers you mention are past exceptional. They can drop a dud on us but it is becoming rare. I have had customers in the past who needed their bench rifle rebarreled ASAP for an upcoming match. They wanted XYZ brand. I told them there was a wait. I said I can get one in ABC brand now. They take the one available and it shoots as well or better than their original choice. I see so few bad barrels anymore that it has become a waste of time to argue the point. I give you kudos for making your statement but get ready for the bashing for cut, button, 5r, 4, 6 blah blah blah on and on and on. In my opinion, machining, QC, attention to detail, etc., it is hard to find a bad barrel. I feel for the barrel makers as they are putting out an outstanding product and making little money for their efforts. The machinery, the labor, the building, the employees, etc and we can get a precision barrel for 300 +/-. Who in their right mind goes into to business with little money to be made from the stout competition and consistenly turn out exceptional parts?! Rant over but I firmly believe that damn near any barrel you get today.....if machined right by the smith, are shooters. It becomes the nut loose behind the trigger. Don't get me wrong, I have my favorite brands but have used most if not all and the fine lines between the good and bad is getting fuzzier.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I can't give you all the answers you're looking for. I would just point out something I've found interesting. If you're building an M40 clone you'd use a Schneider barrel which is button rifled. Read around here and the consensus seems to be if you want an accurate Mk12 upper, use a Douglas, also button rifled.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    This really couldn't have been said any better! That's exactly what I've been telling customers. I've been putting a lot of Lilja barrels on lately simply because the number required to get volume discount was low and they have been turning them out pretty quickly for me. I honestly believe they've all turned into as accurate of a rifle as they could be.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    BIG DISCUSSION GOING ON NOW ON 6BR.slugging barrels B-4 you chamber.... some well known smiths now slug and lap barrels before...putting them on.....Rejects have been found from most big barrel makers....
    bill larson
    "Hold Into The Wind"

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Do you have a link to that thread? I'd like to read it.

    Onyx

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    do you have a link to the other discussion?
    Find us on FaceBook

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: SSC
    do you have a link to the other discussion?


    Your link
    http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?8507...ow-do-you-do-it

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    very interesting reading in the link and I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Gritters. that being said, can someone tell me how he measures his lead lap to the .ooo1???? I am just a poor ole country boy doing the best I can. I try to keep things "close" but I can even fathom measuring a LEAD LAP to this degree!

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I agree with you guys all the way. I've shot and owned most of them too. I also have a few favorites, check the record groups and match winners you will see a mix. Cut or button I don't give a crap if I can tune a 1/4 MOA rifle out of it. Some of the makers are a little more caught up than others and if you want to get a build going don't be afraid to go with any of the above stated tubes.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter
    what is it about a cut rifled barrel that could possibly make it "less finicky"? I do find that some chamberings are indeed less finicky than others but I find this has nothing to do with the barrel being cut or button rifled!

    chuck


    Cut barrels seem to be less temperamental when it comes to the loads is because of the uniformity of the twist and uniformity of the bore and groove size vs. a button rifled barrel. Why? If you read the link posted in Benchrest central they kinda talk about it but I will explain more.

    When you button rifle a barrel and during the button rifling process if the button hits a hard spot or soft spot in the material/blank it will typically slow the button down. The button could speed back up to the twist that it is doing (the twist the barrel is suppose to have is built into the button) but either way what you end up with is a non uniform twist rate in the barrel blank.

    Choke in the bore? Again read the link to the post in Benchrest Central and Gordy did a pretty decent job on why he likes cut rifled barrels. The bore and groove size is more uniform/consistent thru out the bore. When you button rifle a barrel blank you have to do it as a blank. The barrel cannot have a shape or contour to it. If it does then you don't have a uniform diameter on the barrel and the button will expand and relax the steel differently due to the difference in the wall thickness. Then the barrel has to be restress relieved again. What you don't know is if there is any residual stress in the blank any where. When you do the contouring or any secondary machining operation like fluting, crowning the barrel etc...if you hit a spot in the barrel where the stress is the machining operation will relieve the stress and typically the bore will open up/go sour. The last place you want this to happen is where you are cutting the barrel to length and crowning the muzzle. If it happens here it will have an impact on accuracy. No way around it.

    That's why I've always found cut barrels to be more forgiving vs. a button barrel.

    A button barrel can produce a very good barrel and some of the button barrel makers are trying to help guide the rotation of the button to give a more uniform twist.

    After being gone from Krieger Tracy and I where offered a job at a button barrel makers shop. I declined the offer. When asked why I said because of the differences in the cut vs. button I don't believe in the button rifling process. I cannot work at a company where I don't believe in the product. How can I sell something I don't believe in.

    It all goes back to uniformity. The more uniform the twist rate and the bore and groove size the more forgiving the barrel is going to be.

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    frank,

    I appreciate the explanation in the difference of manufacture and it would definitely make sense if a buttoned barrel was allowed to relax or had a non-uniform twist it could certainly give problems! I take it from your response that a button barrel CAN be every bit as good as a cut rifled barrel IF everything is done properly. I will continue to use both and enjoy the ignorant bliss!

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    FWIW:

    3 Years with the Anschutz National service center chambering barrels for international 3p guns.

    We used Hart barrels almost exclusively. The little rimfires shot well.

    3 years at Dakota Arms/Nesika in charge of the entire plant barreling department.

    Used every manufacturer out there and by and large the rifles shot well.

    Almost 4 years now under my own flag. Again, the whole menu of flavors roll through here as clients all have pet favorites.

    By and large, they all shoot well. The discovery I've made is the machining aspect. I have far less trouble with cut rifled barrels. The steel is a couple points higher in hardness generally than buttoned barrels. This means the chip formation is better, the finishes are better, and I have less scrap/rework.

    Due to the increased hardness it also means that customers generally get a higher service life out of the barrel than over a buttoned one.

    It's also more forgiving when it comes thing things like threading muzzles and cutting flutes.


    Remember, whenever your putting a tool to a part you are removing "stress" from the material. Your NOT adding it. If a barrel were to be suffering from "inner turmoil" and you go blazing at the crown to fit a can, you "could" stress releive the crown enough to allow it to bellmouth.

    I've seen this very thing with certain sporter weight barrels, it's why I harp on using the largest possible thread appropriate for the job when putting wrinkles on a muzzle.

    Leave as much meat as you can.

    Last:

    Having used a great number of both button/cut barrels I've noticed that a lot (chit load) of button barrels have a tendency to suffer from quite a bit of runout between bore and the outer periphery. It's never really presented an issue, but its aggravating when fitting things like a brake because you have to adjust your setup. Bore the brake to final ID based on the bore center, then indicate the barrel OD for final contouring to blend the two. I rarely have to do this with cut barrels.

    Just things I've noticed.

    Its for these reasons I push cut barrels. Why make life harder when there's zero gain?

    C.

    "Bring extra funds to replace whoevers steel you're gonna fuck up with that thing."
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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Because of the heat difference between center fire and rimfire, I will run a good button barrel on a smallbore match rifle but not on a center fire rifle used for precision competition. That said, White Oak's button (Wilson based) SPR barrels and service rifle barrels do quite well for their intended tasks.

    It is not all about the way the barrel is rifled. Lawton did cut rifling, and also produced the worst barrel regardless of rifling method my gunsmith ever had in his shop with 33 years gunsmithing experience. It performed as such in the field, changing POI 1 1/4 MOA vertical and 1/2 MOA vertical between cold and 4 shots warming, consistently moving the POI low and left over the 4 shots.
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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    very interesting points chad. i indicate the bore on both ends so the ID/OD relationship has never posed a problem for me. i have installed quite a few brakes and never had blending issues. i certainly can see where relieving stress at the muzzle while threading for a brake could cause problems i just havnt seen it yet. everything i have added a brake to has shot at least as well as it did before. the hardness aspect of the cut barrel is interesting and should allow the throat to live longer though the same thing is accomplished in a 3-groove button barrel. yall have raised some very valid points here. the only thing i would like to let people know that they don't need to wait 6 months for a cut rifled blank if a good button is available somewhere. the button rifled blank could very well produce the best rifle they have ever laid their hands on!

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Typically I will say a cut barrel is a little harder on the Rc scale vs. most button barrels. Some button barrel makers like a softer Rc on the steel as it will button rifle easier. I do know though a button barrel maker was getting approx. the same hardness on steel as we do.

    The hardness might have something to do with the barrel life but keep in mind the button rifling process will work harden the bore as well. This is another reason why cut barrels on average hold accuracy on barrel life somewhat longer than a button barrel.

    We make ammunition test barrels for a lot of companies (ammunition and gun companies) and nearly all of the guys I've talked to in the ballistic labs give the same feed back, back to me. That they see the cut barrels on average lasting longer.

    I don't see the number of grooves helping in barrel life with all things being equal. In a button barrel if by making a 3 groove and you make the lands wider I can see it helping as your giving the barrels lands more surface area for wear but that's it. I haven't seen anything with the number of grooves/lands being different in a cut barrel helping barrel life.

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    frank,

    the lands in a 3-groove button rifled barrel are quite a bit wider. I like them because they seem to clean extremely easy and tend to get a little better velocity than their counterparts. I was led to believe that the wider lands would help with throat erosion but I really don't know for a fact. I have a very nice bore scope that I never use! [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I've tested most "brands" of barrel blanks for hardness, diametrically and linearly and on average, Bartlein was the harder of the test samples and also offered the most consistent results across the range of blanks used as test samples.

    After testing and using button and cut-rifled blanks, I've chosen to stick with cut-rifled blanks based on overall performance.
    Mike
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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    It is true both processes purchase similar hardness steel in the high end market 28-32. Frank is correct in that low end $100 barrels may use softer steels but not the high end like Lilja, Hart, or Broughton 5C®.

    The truth is in a buttoned barrel the groove becomes approximately 10 rockwell harder than the base steel hardness and the land is slightly hardened in a square land barrel. This hardening is an advantage not a negitive. The tops centers of the lands are the same in both proceeses. The land sides are substantially hardened in the Broughton 5C® barrel copyrighted process. Harrold Broughton told me 10 years ago his buttoned barrels lasted longer than cut rifled barrels with his square rifling. After purchasing the company our customers confirmed it. So the groove is harder and logicly takes longer to change dimensions and to wear out. Grooves and sides of the lands do most of the work in a barrel after the throat engraves the bullet.

    Dasers with our 5C® barrels typically last 3,000+ rounds according to eastern gunsmiths. I personnelly retired my last 6.5 x 284 at 1,800 rounds after winning the Iowa State 1000 yd. match years ago with a throat that looked like it was just broke in.

    One bottom line is both processes with attention to detail produce equally accurate rifle barrels in the hands of a good gunsmith. The rest is hype in the market on one process over the other. The other bottom line is the accuracy at the range. This is really the one that counts. Both Keiger and ourselves do well in the long range 1000 yd benchrest game in the 1000 Yd World Open in PA year after year, one cut and one buttoned. Enough said!!!

    Tim North
    Broughton 5C® Rifle Barrels

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Fwiw, in the 90's Accuracy International used to use cut and buttoned barrels. If both manufacturing processes were good enough for them; they should be good enough for most on here. I used to hear horror stories about hammer forged barrels, then there are the Steyrs and M24s. So the bottom line is......well you know the bottom line. I think we're are in good hands no matter who we choose. Enjoy your life, don't sweat the little things.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter
    frank,

    the lands in a 3-groove button rifled barrel are quite a bit wider. I like them because they seem to clean extremely easy and tend to get a little better velocity than their counterparts. I was led to believe that the wider lands would help with throat erosion but I really don't know for a fact. I have a very nice bore scope that I never use! [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

    chuck


    Yes if memory serves me correctly the lands are real wide. It's like a 50/50 land to groove ratio.

    This has got nothing to do with how the barrel cleans. That's got more to do with the quality of the barrel and the bore finish etc.....

    Again in a button barrel the wider lands most likely helps with barrel life but again I go back to saying button rifling work hardens the bore and with everything being equal a cut barrel lasts longer than a button on average but I don't see the width of the lands or number of grooves making a difference in a cut barrel.

    Velocity? There are a lot of things that can effect the velocity. What is the exact bore size? What is the groove size? What chamber reamer was used with what specs. on it? This has been talked about in previous post so I'm not going to go thru it all again right now.

    We've made 3 groove 6mm barrels and .30cal. barrels. No difference in accuracy vs. a 4 groove or 5R that we've made or barrel life.

    I do remember though the 3 groove barrels that where made for one of the top palma shooters in the country. He said accuracy etc...was all great out to 800 yards but after that they lost out to the 4 grooves we normally made him. What was the difference? The 3 grooves with the 50/50 land to groove ratio we're a solid 100-150fps. slower than his 4 groove barrels we made him. Same chamber reamer was used and we made the barrels to the exact same spec. as the 4 grooves.

    You start changing the groove width, bore size, or groove size you start changing the total bore surface area of the barrel and now you start effecting the pressure curve etc...and nearly everyone out there has no way of measuring what pressure they're ammo/loads are running in they're barrel. They just think well the bolt lift is o.k. and I don't see anything wrong with the primers or brass so my load must be o.k. when in fact they could be running over the safe working pressures of the cartridge.

    That's why when a customer asks us to make a different number of groove barrel etc...we try and stick to a formula for the land to groove ratio and bore surface area so we feel we are on the right track for making a safe product as well. If we feel it's not safe to do we will decline to do it. We do make specific types of test barrels where the manufacturer wants a certain number of grooves, groove width's or bore and groove sizes but usually this is for testing before making ammo or producing a new firearm etc....

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    frank,

    I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it all in terms even I can understand.

    chuck

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I don't know anything about metals but Criterion barrels use 420R stainless steal instead of 416R. Supposedly it is harder. Mine shoots great and the throat is still nice after 800 rounds in a 260AI. Any truth to this?

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: JWV
    I don't know anything about metals but Criterion barrels use 420R stainless steal instead of 416R. Supposedly it is harder. Mine shoots great and the throat is still nice after 800 rounds in a 260AI. Any truth to this?


    From my memory 420 and 416 stainless are quite similar; with similar alloying percentages but I believe 416 has a higher Sulphur content to aid in machining and chip production.

    That Sulphur content, IMO contributes to the firecracking in the throat.
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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter
    frank,

    I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it all in terms even I can understand.

    chuck


    Me, too. I'd like to thank both Frank Green and Tim North for taking time to help the rest of us understand in clear terms the difference between these processes. I'm learning much more here than I do on other threads.

    Yours,

    David

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Thanks for sharing your knowledge,this was a great read for me.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Having industry guys like those chime in, is what makes this the best site on the
    Web... Thanks for a great post!
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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: buffybuster
    Originally Posted By: JWV
    I don't know anything about metals but Criterion barrels use 420R stainless steal instead of 416R. Supposedly it is harder. Mine shoots great and the throat is still nice after 800 rounds in a 260AI. Any truth to this?


    From my memory 420 and 416 stainless are quite similar; with similar alloying percentages but I believe 416 has a higher Sulphur content to aid in machining and chip production.

    That Sulphur content, IMO contributes to the firecracking in the throat.


    420 is higher carbon and less nickel

    416 is higher nickel and less carbon

    Technicly speaking the higher nickel should handle heat better!
    George Gardner, G.A. Precision
    http://www.gaprecision.net


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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Interesting. Thanks George!

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I have 2 rifles tubes by ITD and am awaiting delivery of a 3rd. The two I presently have are .308 Douglas barrels- one CM and one stainless. The CM was a booger to break in, but puts 190 SMKs into bitty groups with its 10 twist. The stainless is in a MCMillan M40 A1 stock in forest camo and is my favorite rifle. It shoots 155 NCCs like lazer beams. It is twisted 1/12. I have and have owned rifles with Bartlein, Krieger and Shilen. They were shooters, too.

    I am not sure of the barrel life, but they will probably outlive me.

    Ditto the "75% Indian and 25% arrow" analogy.
    Me: I got my new Bartlein barrel
    My Brother: How much?
    Me: $350.
    My Brother: $350!!! That's expensive.
    Me: How much do you pay for barrels?
    My Brother: I don't buy barrels. I shoot a .308.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    A wealth of information here. Great read.
    NRA Life Member,Colt Armorer

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I guess I'll have to build two identical rifles with a barrel of each flavor and compare. Dang it [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Learned a thing or three. Thanks folks

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I buy custom barrels that are factory honed and factory stress relieved and often called "select match".

    The button rifled Shilens and the cut rifling Kriegers I own are so much better than I am... but so are a lot of really crummy barrels.

    Those custom barrels stay clean longer and do not warp when hot. That is why I buy them.

    The cut rifling supposedly wears out slower or more gracefully. That is of no concern to me. I build 3 rifles a year for my self and go to the range 3 times a year.
    How did I make money?
    I set my own rate for designing things using math, while communicating with managers like they were attention deficit disorder 5 year olds with a gun pointed at me.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    well,with all that was said,its clear as mud! i'll stick w/my crigger,broughton,shillen,hart and bartlein barreled rifles! and my favorite one is always the one i take to the range......d-1
    david l shelly

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    I have used a variety of tubes ( barrels) and prefer cut rifled barrels and like the way Krieger does theirs. Ground between centers for concentricity and cut rifled puts minimal stress in the barrel steel. Pushing or pulling a button broach involves more stress while machining Vs a single hook cutter.

    I have never received a Krieger barrel that shot poorly but have had others that I had to fight with to perform as well.

    Its hard to beat the Micro groove Marlin rifling in .22's and buttoned barrels are usually very smooth but a few points softer on the Rc scale.
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor & RSO
    NRA Life

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: Onyx
    Do you have a link to that thread? I'd like to read it.

    Onyx


    Same here. Link?

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Originally Posted By: Tim N
    It is true both processes purchase similar hardness steel in the high end market 28-32. Frank is correct in that low end $100 barrels may use softer steels but not the high end like Lilja, Hart, or Broughton 5C®.

    The truth is in a buttoned barrel the groove becomes approximately 10 rockwell harder than the base steel hardness and the land is slightly hardened in a square land barrel. This hardening is an advantage not a negitive. The tops centers of the lands are the same in both proceeses. The land sides are substantially hardened in the Broughton 5C® barrel copyrighted process. Harrold Broughton told me 10 years ago his buttoned barrels lasted longer than cut rifled barrels with his square rifling. After purchasing the company our customers confirmed it. So the groove is harder and logicly takes longer to change dimensions and to wear out. Grooves and sides of the lands do most of the work in a barrel after the throat engraves the bullet.

    Dasers with our 5C® barrels typically last 3,000+ rounds according to eastern gunsmiths. I personnelly retired my last 6.5 x 284 at 1,800 rounds after winning the Iowa State 1000 yd. match years ago with a throat that looked like it was just broke in.

    One bottom line is both processes with attention to detail produce equally accurate rifle barrels in the hands of a good gunsmith. The rest is hype in the market on one process over the other. The other bottom line is the accuracy at the range. This is really the one that counts. Both Keiger and ourselves do well in the long range 1000 yd benchrest game in the 1000 Yd World Open in PA year after year, one cut and one buttoned. Enough said!!!

    Tim North
    Broughton 5C® Rifle Barrels


    I am only a sample of one, but I have one of Tim's barrels and from my limited experience, he is correct. My 308 has a Broughton barrel and it gets by far the most range time of any rifle I own. Cleans easily, perfect bore finish, little to no shift on cold bore or suppressed, and was a breeze to chamber.

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    Re: cut VS. button rifled barrels..........the truth!

    Tag for future reference . Excellent info
    BLUEJAZZ

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    Thanks for all he info

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    When it comes of big round count vs accuracy loss, one guy says this one guy says that.....blablabla,however; the FBI in Real Testing (the kind done by pros, every shot accounted for etc.), where big money (who gets the contract) is/was at stake, I believe FN's bolt gun won out, with something like 5000 round 1/2moa requirement. What kind of tube are they running? Cut or button? It must be one or the other, maybe, just maybe it is hammer forged? No, that couldn't be right- who knows for sure?

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    OOOOPSS, I was wrong in my above post, I'd like to correct it now. The FBI FN sniper rifle has to meet the 10,000 round 1/2MOA requirement, not the 5000 round I stated earlier, BTW, it is chrome lined!!! How is this possible? Maybe some of the real experts on this string can give the rest of us some insight, is the FBI being less than honest? Are these rifles really not living up to the requirement?

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    I'll call some of this BS! For a few reasons. One be careful what you read on line or hear thru the grapevine. Unless you have some sort of proof or documents to back it up. 1/2 moa at 10k rounds? Need more data and what is the standard? Was the accuracy testing done with 3 round groups, 5 round groups, 10 round groups? If you say 10 round groups and 1/2 moa I'm going to say the barrels didn't make it past 3000-3500 rounds and they won't hold it anymore. Also how many rounds in between cleaning will have an impact on accuracy. The question has to be asked is this. " At say 8000 rounds are they cleaning after every 20 rounds to keep the accuracy at 1/2moa with 10 round groups?" Has the barrels crown been touched up to maintain the accuracy? The crown will wear just from the powders gas cutting effect.

    If the barrels are so good then why have new rifles been built or rebuilt by the HRT using some of our barrels? Why didn't they get them all from FN? Or are they getting any?

    Chrome lining the bore leads to too many inconsistency's in terms of accuracy and barrel life and from batch to batch.

    Get someone from FN to release actual data as to some or all of these questions and I won't be so skeptical. Also get FN to agree to do a controlled test for accuracy and barrel life and I would consider making at a discount or even possibly donate a couple of barrels for the test neck and neck with they're barrels. Here is going to be the catch though! They don't run the test. The tests would have to be done by a independent party so nothing is influenced. Same ammo has to be used. Same chamber specs. same test platform, same test conditions etc....same amount of cleaning in between rounds at the same intervals, same cleaning technique, same solvents have to be used etc....

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels

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    Tims Barrels have done an outstanding on our rifles..
    Be the Predator, Not the Prey

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    I have a few chamberings under my belt, I do my work and I spend a significant amount of time on my stuff and discussing with a couple of well respected builders around here.

    I've found the cut rifled to be very consistent however the best 5 barrels that I've ever owned (in descending order) were:

    Hart 6.5mm 8tw - 6.5CM
    Shilen 6.5mm 8tw - 6.5-06 and then 6.5CM (I used the take-off in a shorty for a build and it continued to hammer for another 4600rd)
    Bartlein 30c 10tw
    Brux 30c 8.5tw
    Hart 30c 10tw - 30-06 on a Mauser action, it was stunningly accurate.

    Currently I have 2 Kriegers, 1 Bartlein, 1 Brux and 3 Hawk Hill Precision barrels on rifles. Every single one of those cut rifled barrels shoots <3/8MOA regularly up close and <1/2MOA @ mid-range.

    I've owned enough barrels to confidently say that I cannot shoot the difference between a quality made button barrel and a quality made cut barrel. I have no qualms owning either, I've been sponsored for this season by a cut rifle manufacturer (Hawk Hill Precision) and I was initially very impressed with their quality when I approached them to make me some odd combination of features. All that being aside, the quality of their product has stood up next to the other big names for cut rifled process.

    I'm always on the lookout for ANY barrel that will shoot <1/4MOA regularly, so far 2 of the 3 that I own/owned which do that have been button rifled barrels.

    Just don't count out the button barrels because of the internet Hype. Benchmark and Hart make some damned good stuff that regularly win big competitions and set records.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Green View Post
    I'll call some of this BS! For a few reasons. One be careful what you read on line or hear thru the grapevine. Unless you have some sort of proof or documents to back it up. 1/2 moa at 10k rounds? Need more data and what is the standard? Was the accuracy testing done with 3 round groups, 5 round groups, 10 round groups? If you say 10 round groups and 1/2 moa I'm going to say the barrels didn't make it past 3000-3500 rounds and they won't hold it anymore. Also how many rounds in between cleaning will have an impact on accuracy. The question has to be asked is this. " At say 8000 rounds are they cleaning after every 20 rounds to keep the accuracy at 1/2moa with 10 round groups?" Has the barrels crown been touched up to maintain the accuracy? The crown will wear just from the powders gas cutting effect.

    If the barrels are so good then why have new rifles been built or rebuilt by the HRT using some of our barrels? Why didn't they get them all from FN? Or are they getting any?

    Chrome lining the bore leads to too many inconsistency's in terms of accuracy and barrel life and from batch to batch.

    Get someone from FN to release actual data as to some or all of these questions and I won't be so skeptical. Also get FN to agree to do a controlled test for accuracy and barrel life and I would consider making at a discount or even possibly donate a couple of barrels for the test neck and neck with they're barrels. Here is going to be the catch though! They don't run the test. The tests would have to be done by a independent party so nothing is influenced. Same ammo has to be used. Same chamber specs. same test platform, same test conditions etc....same amount of cleaning in between rounds at the same intervals, same cleaning technique, same solvents have to be used etc....

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
    You may be right on, and God Bless you, not that many people have the balls to call the FBI testing and contract people into question. Do you think that are just stupid, or was there some kind of pay-off? Of course, I have nothing to do with FN or the FBI, so I won't be able to get anyone to do anything, much less order some new test not based on the FBI's protocol, but rather, what you'd like to see! I believe you are in a good position to contact the IG and call into question the integrity of those involved in the testing/contract awarding, not to mention FN's ads and info put out to the public. I do believe you have given the readers of this string good advice when you say, "one be careful what you read on line or hear thru the grapevine", anyone can put anything on line, sure doesn't make it true. It saddens me to even consider that our premier law enforcement agency, the FBI, could be involved in such a thing. You seem to know more than you are letting on, do you have some specific names/times etc., this sounds like criminal actions, faking FBI test results-resulting in a large contract-keep us in the loop.
    Last edited by pawprint2; 03-15-2013 at 10:10 AM.

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    No I don't have anymore information on what FN does or how the testing was done with the FBI guns etc...I'm going off of experience with barrel life, test barrels that we've made gun companies and ammunition makers, bullet makers etc.... I know GA Precision has built rifles for the HRT guys and have used our barrels etc....

    I'll give you another example. I have a pre64 Winchester target rifle in .30-06. The barrel judging from the wear etc....is in excess of 5k rounds. With a clean barrel and cold bore the first 10 rounds that gun will shoot right around 1/2moa but after that it won't hold 1/2 moa. If you clean the barrel it will go right back to pounding them but again it won't hold it.

    So the questions need to be asked are. How many rounds in between cleaning, number of rounds in the group etc....

    If your accuracy requirement is 10 round groups and 1/2 moa I would go on a limb and say barrel life is around 4k rounds. If the accuracy req. is 1/2 moa with 3 or 5 round groups yea the barrel life could be 10k rounds.

    What is the accuracy req. and the number of rounds fired for accuracy?

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
    Last edited by Frank Green; 03-15-2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    I'm just curious: what is a button and how is it different from a cutter when it comes to the two from a machining standpoint. I'm a rank amateur when it comes to machining (very amateur and pretty rank sometimes) but I assume cut-rifling is similar to a broaching operation, but with the broach rotating? I have no idea what buttoning would be.

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