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Thread: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

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    Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    My daughter is going to a state school in IL, and I'm wanting to be sure she can stay safe after dark. Any recomendations for pepper spray or something else we should look at along these lines?

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Too messy. Get her a taser.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    a handgun and a different state for school, one that respects a persons right to self defense

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Know your laws..... Our University does NOT allow those and you can get arrested for it.

    Stop by the University Police Dept IF they have one and ask them. They for the most part ARE on our side.

    Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Bear spray! Some of those guys are big

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Teach her that her brain is her best concealed weapon;

    http://www.kravmaga.com/programs/self-defense/
    Gary Eliseo
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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Enroll her in a basic self defense class.

    gme had it right.
    "Amateurs argue caliber, professionals hone shot placement."
    YMT

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Situational awareness and common sense will keep her free of trouble much better than OC spray. If it is OK for her to carry it on campus then I would suggest OC spray of at least 10% concentration with a marking dye. Again though possessing it is only a small part. Learning when and how to use it is more important.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Definitely check state laws by school. Major offense in some states having wrong type of spray. Some places limit the size of the bottle, type of spray, propellant and concentration as well.

    I've heard ladies carrying around bear and wasp spray... It may be legal to carry, but using for different purpose may have consequences, everywhere is different.

    If I were in your shoes, I would get her 2 types. A jogging version and a keychain type. The jogging ones are generally much more powerful spraying with propellant but it may often stay in her purse (many come with hand straps). A keychain will always be in her hands when walking to car or dorm. There might not be time to rummage through a purse with all that a young lady carries, or may forget to hold it. If legal in your area look for a combination of high concentration OC and Tear Gas (some have UV dye that stays on as well to identify later, might be good idea) Buy a recognized brand with lots of reviews! Tell her to check it sparatically for function and watch expiration date.

    As others mentioned, teach her situational awareness etc... Stuff is no good if they're not prepared.

    2 other things worth mentioning: defense pen and personal sound alarm (high decibel)
    Easily carried all the time. When looking at things, consider the likelihood of the item being on her person; it has to be convenient for her or it may end up in a drawer.

    Best of luck with your purchase, I'm sure everything will wok out well-

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    My wife carried a small can of OC in her purse while taking her masters program. Like I told her, if you need it, it'll sure be better to have it even if its "illegal" on campus. If you don't need it, who's gonna know. She kept it in its own pocket to help prevent an AD.

    I really wanted her to carry a pistol, considering she was in a rough area at night. I would have, legal or not. judged by 12 vs carried by 6

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    fyi, using bear spray on someone is tantamount to lethal force. So you better be afraid for your life if you use it. Its not designed for personal defense and I'm sure a civil suit would rip you a new one.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: Turk10mm
    fyi, using bear spray on someone is tantamount to lethal force. So you better be afraid for your life if you use it. Its not designed for personal defense and I'm sure a civil suit would rip you a new one.


    Tantamount to lethal force...


    You have a legal cite for that opinion?


    Good luck
    <span style="font-style: italic">Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you.</span> Jack Kornfield

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek
    Enroll her in a basic self defense class.

    gme had it right.



    +2

    Tools and no training = victim abused by their own tools.


    <span style="font-style: italic">Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you.</span> Jack Kornfield

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    I have used pepper spray in an altercation and it did more harm than good. I would get her some self defense classes, proper mindset,and a good knife/ box cutter.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: Turk10mm
    She kept it in its own pocket to help prevent an AD.



    And on the note of training - see how fast she can remove it from her purse, from its case, make sure the nozzle is not pointed at herself, and deploy it - all while getting the shit kicked out of her by a 200# man.


    There is only one answer - training.



    Good luck
    <span style="font-style: italic">Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you.</span> Jack Kornfield

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek
    Originally Posted By: Turk10mm
    fyi, using bear spray on someone is tantamount to lethal force. So you better be afraid for your life if you use it. Its not designed for personal defense and I'm sure a civil suit would rip you a new one.

    You have a legal cite for that opinion?


    Ya I do, Texas penal code 46.01 (14)

    (14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
    other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
    personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the
    purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
    psychological or physiological effect on a human being.

    If someone dies while you are using it, you better hold onto your britches because its gonna be rough ride.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    First I would let her get a conceal weapons permit, if the state allows them. Taser, but I would ckeck the laws of the school first.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Check out the "Wild Hair" (?) by Cold Steel. Not fancy but works.
    Have a good one,
    Will

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: Turk10mm
    Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek
    Originally Posted By: Turk10mm
    fyi, using bear spray on someone is tantamount to lethal force. So you better be afraid for your life if you use it. Its not designed for personal defense and I'm sure a civil suit would rip you a new one.

    You have a legal cite for that opinion?


    Ya I do, Texas penal code 46.01 (14)

    (14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device,
    other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for
    personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the
    purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse
    psychological or physiological effect on a human being.

    If someone dies while you are using it, you better hold onto your britches because its gonna be rough ride.



    Yes. I am a troll. And you are a DEEP thinker.

    You cited the definition of a weapon - not what context allows for "Lethal Force". (May want to review Chapter 9). Also may want to consider that the US is bigger than Texas - so blanket statements aren't always the best.

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/PE.46.htm

    Furthermore in perusing Chapter 9 - the act of simply being sprayed with 'Bear' spray (because we want to eschew technical terms like scoville units per OZ) - doesn't allow another to justifiably use lethal force.

    Last thought - and it is one for you to ponder - exactly how does one know if they were sprayed with 'Bear' spray? Wouldn't the fact of the matter be that few people have been sprayed with both pepper spray and 'Bear' spray (I love that term) so as to be in position to distinguish which is which - and by extension, as based on YOUR interpretation of Chapter 9 - when they are justified in using lethal force?


    It's been real.



    Good luck
    <span style="font-style: italic">Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you.</span> Jack Kornfield

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Moment of intellectual honesty - the comment was 'tantamount to lethal force' given the definition as noted above under CH46 there is no scoville max, and while someone like Graham can weigh in, I fail to see how 'Bear' spray does not meet the tests: commercial available, for personal defense, small.

    Good luck
    <span style="font-style: italic">Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you.</span> Jack Kornfield

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Thanks guys. I'll check the school rules before we get something. Not sure how I missed that first.

    It's in IL, so concealed carry permit is out. 49 states have them, 1 doesn't... I just moved to Indiana and now know what it's like to not have guns frowned upon!

    There isn't a lot of concern, but she goes to the gym late sometimes. She does go in a group with friends, so that and staying alert SHOULD be all that is needed.

    I'm going to research self defense classes that I can sell her on as a little bit of fitness class too. She and my better half are into that big.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    A 500 lumen SureFire is a good piece of gear for the ladies as well. Very bright and intimidating and useful for other things as well.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: Dfarmer786
    Too messy. Get her a taser.

    Go the Pepper spray route, much better. The Taser is only a single shot, then if you make contact, you have to put the taser down and run and fast as you can to 30 seconds. After the 30 seconds, the suspects gets up and has full strength. Then on top of that, you just left your $300 taser on the ground.

    With pepper spray, you can engage multiple attacker, and even dogs.
    I am a tactical instructor, I have used both on the job. Pepper spray with 10% will even stop a Grizzly Bear, you will however need a large can, fogger type.

    I keep a bottle of the Pepper spray in all my cars for my wife. THe stuff works great, just need to remember to shake it up.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    It's not just laws at a university.

    State law here says you can have, for example, mace, pepper spray etc pretty much anywhere. But the university (University of Arizona) says ANY weapon is prohibited

    Thus you might not be breaking the law but get caught, you get kicked out the the school

    http://www.uapd.arizona.edu/WeaponsOnCampus.pdf

    Will

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Some more OC spray realities:

    - OC takes a short bit of time to act. A person can do a lot of damage before the OC takes full effect. Exactly the same as the "timers and switches" concept of shooting peoiple.

    About 10% of people (IIRC) aren't strongly affected by OC. Others are only enraged by the burning sensation. I am easily affected by chopping onions, let alone pepper spray.

    - OC spray is always recommended for persons who can't defend themselves. Those same people are probably least likely to maintain retention of it. Do not telegraph, do not give a warning, just spray.

    - OC goes where the wind goes; no matter if foam, stream or spray. Foam can be thrown back at you, droplets dispersed with foam can still blow in your eyes, stream splash back can be a bitch and spray is... well, it's already aerosolized.

    - It usually needs to be deployed very quickly; no time to unbutton keychain case, no time to dig around in console or glove compartment. If she doesn't have 360 degree awareness or if someone is approaching, it should be in her hand. Habit. Key ring in palm, keys protruding through fingers in the other hand. This is where mindset and breathing control are important.

    - Sprayed indoors it will very likely get in the victim's eyes as well. You can imagine the slo-mo "NNNNnnnnnoooooo" face I once made when I saw a co-worker about to deploy his OC in a stairwell.

    If it's still an option:

    - Get at least three or four of the same type. I don't think you will skimp on quality, but get a reputable brand that won't be as likely to leak (propellant loss). PRACTICE with one so she gets an idea of the range, pattern and strength. Upwind, of course. Cars are a bad place to leave them; the heat can force the propellant out. It can also contaminate objects around it.

    TEST each one of the cans, at least a brief squeeze. The practice one is discarded. The other two are for multiple locations or backup. Periodic testing is in order to make sure the propellant hasn't leaked out AND to make sure she knows how to use it. Just a very short shot outdoors, to the ground will suffice.

    Ask if the manufacturer has training models available. They make them for LE practice, but I don't know about the smaller, non-LE sizes.

    Every rookie I trained had to demonstrate/deploy all less-lethal weapons before our first patrol. I caught a few useless cans of OC spray, and one guy that didn't know the top security flap should be moved out of the way before pressing the valve. The guy was simply smashing the cover so hard it pressed the valve. Like someone said earlier, training is everything.

    - Techniques; 1) One application of spray is all you need. More is not better; continually hosing someone's face will not allow the OC content to work with ambient air. It will just insulate the spray closest to the skin. 2) Proper form is usually taught as holding the spray firmly in an ice pick grip at arms length in one hand. The thumb on the valve. The other arm is extended with the palm flat and facing out toward the assailant. That flat palm is a barrier to overspray. Not much, but it's better than nothing.

    And of course, putting pepper spray out there at arm's length may involve retention problem.

    - Know that flushing with water is still one of the best ways to start getting it out of your eyes. Police cadets bring everything from baby shampoo to huge bowls of whole milk to help with the burning. It's still no better than water. The only thing that "helps" is a coat of Vaseline on your face prior to application. But hey, that's cheating.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Thanks. That's quite a bit of info. Good stuff.

    I'm going to order some and work on some of that with her before Christmas break is up. And defense classes if we find some she'll do.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Evidently some people here have not been pepper sprayed.

    I have...........twice. And you can fight through it if you want to.

    And 99% of the time the sprayer ends up with it all over them too.
    Bad juju.

    But go ahead, give your young girl pepper spray, hahaha.
    "Amateurs argue caliber, professionals hone shot placement."
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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek
    Evidently some people here have not been pepper sprayed.

    I have...........twice.

    But go ahead, give your young girl pepper spray, hahaha.


    Creeper... hahahhahaaha [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]
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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan
    Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek
    Evidently some people here have not been pepper sprayed.

    I have...........twice.

    But go ahead, give your young girl pepper spray, hahaha.


    Creeper... hahahhahaaha [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]


    In the military and police academy numbnuts!!! hahaha
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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    I've been sprayed a bunch... in training and accidentally in the field... IF I know it's coming I can fight through it, but not as effectively... if I don't know it's coming, I've learned to hold on... and I'm not as sensitive to it as a lot of people I've sprayed or seen sprayed...

    the catch w/ OC, a baton, taser, or even a firearm, is that you have to know at least a little about when and how to deploy it, then how to use the advantage it gives you...

    unlike LE, when a civilian uses OC, a Taser, etc... they need to use it to create a window for escape... LE uses it to create a window to gain control of the subject...

    what most people don't understand, less lethal force simply creates a window, through either distraction, pain, or "neuromuscular incapacitation"

    learn how to exploit that window before you ever consider using less lethal

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    Now for some actually important information regarding the original topic.

    Aerosol/spray type chemical defenses are FAR inferior to shot canister designs like the Kimber PepperBlaster.

    If you decide the correct answer is a chemical defense, get her the best, don't cheap out with a silly stupid $5 keychain POS. These Kimbers are less than $40, but well worth the money.


    Again, Do NOT get a SPRAY. Get an OC shot canister, big difference.




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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    +1 KSwift
    Note the "must break to use" trigger. Good design, liability protection. Not all capsicum mixtures are equal.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: Dfarmer786
    Too messy. Get her a taser.


    I strongly disagree with this. Though I've never had more fun in a use-of-force than I did when I Tased someone for the first time, I must admit that I've seen Tasers fail quite a few times in real world encounters with criminals. Really, you get one shot with it against an attacker: if he breaks the connections to the probes, or the probes fail to make good contact, you're down to holding an old-fashioned stun gun (which is not so useful in a fight against a stronger, pissed off opponent -- again, I've used a "drive stun" with success, but I've done it against people I probably could have beat in a fist fight too). The Taser may work, it may not. It's a great tool for law enforcement, but I think it has limited uses for civilian self defense.

    Pepper spray is messy to be sure, especially if you are in a law enforcement environment (which this gal won't be). I hate using the stuff at work, and very rarely use it. Fact is, spraying them in my job means spraying them and then wrestling them while they're covered in pepper spray, which contaminates me with that crap too. Then I feel like crap for a while, and get the pleasure of reliving that moment when I take a shower later. But, I disagree that the sprayer normally gets covered in the stuff when spraying someone they aren't fighting. If you fog someone into the wind, you can get some blow-back. We use a stream type of spray, and don't usually get a whole lot of blow-back from it.

    If this college student is attacked, she should be spraying the attacker and then getting out of the situation as quickly as possible. For self-defense in situations where firearms are either not allowed or not practical, that's a pretty good method of self defense. It limits the suspect's vision, and is highly irritating to the vast majority of people. The last guy I sprayed was drunk enough to blow a .3-something after his arrest, and it still took the fight right out of him. And, once again, it was a nasty experience for me.

    As for the recommendations of bear spray, I think that's a bit silly. The only thing bear spray has going for it is that it is in a larger container that is more suitable for deterring a large animal at a larger distance. It isn't anything special, it's still just OC spray. It isn't "lethal force" here in my state, but it isn't particularly suitable for everyday carry. If you are attacked while hiking in bear country, it's probably a good option. It makes no sense for a college campus.

    We carry Saber Red at work. It hurts, and I hate getting sprayed with it. I've also felt Fox sprays before, and they hurt too. Can you fight through them? Sure. Will an attacker who is sprayed by surprise going to fight through it quickly enough to find the victim who is sprinting away from him? Probably not. There are no guarantees in life, but pepper spray is effective against most people, doesn't need a lot of practice to use, and can create a momentary window of escape for a victim of an attack.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Thanks ColoradoCop.

    I'm finding a self defense class around her school. Knowledge will always be more useful than tools.

    Knowing how to use the right tools can make the difference sometimes. Like concealed carry, you hope the training was all for nothing.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Originally Posted By: wingnut49b
    Thanks ColoradoCop.

    I'm finding a self defense class around her school. Knowledge will always be more useful than tools.

    Knowing how to use the right tools can make the difference sometimes. Like concealed carry, you hope the training was all for nothing.


    Exactly. It is almost always an issue of mindset, skillset, toolset (in about that order). A good campus self-defense class will hopefully spend most of its time focusing on issues of problem avoidance and threat recognition, since avoiding the bad situations is obviously preferable to fighting a larger and stronger attacker. The mindset is key, and the mind needs to be focused on not getting attacked in the first place.

    As for the skillset, there are some limitations. If she really wants to effectively fight against someone who has a size, weight, and strength advantage over her, it will take much more than a campus 'defensive tactics' class (that's why I like to see these classes focus on threat avoidance). Don't get me wrong, those classes can get you in a fighting mindset, but there's still a reason that professional fighters compete within weight classes. The good news is that the skillset required to effectively deploy pepper spray isn't too hard to obtain. It is a much simpler skill set than that which is required to effectively deploy a gun, or win in a fist fight against someone who has physical advantages over you.

    As for an effective toolset, pepper spray is cheap, legally permissible in many places guns aren't, and is easy to use. It is still an option, she should just know that such an option shouldn't give her a false sense of security, or cause her to place herself in situations where she wouldn't have gone without these tools.

  36. #36
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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    I have been hit with both OC sprays and Tazer for training/certifications. OC multiple times and the Tazer only once (that was enough). I have been sprayed and then grappled with an opponent and also sprayed and then used a firearm (Airsoft). You can fight off the effects and still function after being sprayed.

    Tazer...done for...for 5 seconds, then you are back to 100% (and mad). I would much rather take the OC spray and deal with the effects for the 15-20 mins it takes to wear off rather than being hit with a Tazer again.

    That said, the Tazer is a great tool for Law Enforcement but I think has limitations for personal defense, especially in your case with a college age daughter. Probes can dislodge, miss, not go through clothing, etc. and it is a skill, like shooting a firearm, that needs to be trained and practiced.

    Fighting off the OC sprays takes a certain mindset and training to realize that you can actually do it. Most shitbags don't have either and OC sprays are usually effective against these types of people. I think the OC spray would be a good route to go along with the previously mentioned self defense/I will not be a victim mindset training.

    This is what I got my wife for an OC spray device. ASP Defender
    It attaches to the keyring so she should always have it in her hand. Push the safety aside with your thumb and depress the end. It is short, compact and just looks like a key-chain-dangly-thing to other people. Plus, the ring side swivels so keys can be used as an impact device along with the delivery end for striking. They make inert spray inserts so she can train with it under realistic scenarios.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Have a good one,
    Will

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    pepper spray. but really also try it out, eg on the wall in front of you. i know people who carry them, but never bother to check:
    - 'how far does it spray?'
    - 'how wide is the spray?
    - 'is it more like a jet or spray?
    really try it out.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    My daughter Attends Liberty University where CC is allowed,thank God there are a few conservative schools, and in Nov she turned 21. For her birthday she received a FN 9mm. Last night she completed her cc class.
    I feel for those forced to depend on the likes of pepper sprays but I thank the lord I am not forced to.
    Were there one Drop of the blood of 1776 passed down in our lineage, the fresh smell of liberty would be overriding the sting of gunpowder in the air!


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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    I'm working on it, but concealed carry isn't an option here. She doesn't shoot, and even if she did, IL is the last state to not offer it.

    Thanks for the reccomendations. I'm one of those guys that researches the crap out of everything, and this is great.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    pepper spray aint stoppin no determined male from gettin the goodies. send her to bible college in a southern state. land of that damned cult of lincoln isnt fit for education anyway and her rights to defend herself are none.
    dhs wants to put ther dik in our arse, thanks obama!

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    First, buy her this book. http://gavindebecker.com/resources/b..._gift_of_fear/
    If she gets past page 6, she won't put it down until she's done. Awareness can keep one out situations that may turn bad.

    I retired after 20 years as a city cop in a college town. Very valuable info in that book for a young woman, or almost anyone for that matter.

    About 1980 had a coed shoot a would be rapist one night in her bedroom as he reached for her. A single .25ACP round entered his left arm behind the wrist and exited in front of the elbow. I found the slug on the floor after it bounced off the bedroom door.

    He fled from the loud noise and bright flash, turning over furniture on his way out.
    She was scared to death, thought I was going to arrest her.
    I told her she did two things wrong. She quit shooting before the gun was empty (in case he took it away from her) and she didn't use a big enough gun. I told her to tell her daddy to buy her a .38.

    He showed up at the emergency room later for treatment of the infection he got from sewing up the wounds himself with dyed thread and a sewing needle. An alert ER doc recognized the gunshot wound and called us.

    Good luck with her education. Call the crime analyst in the city she's moving to and find out whe NOT to live.

    Too bad it's in Illinois where the ability to defend one's self is so heavily restricted.
    It ain't lion hunting unless you get stitches.
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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    check your pm.

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Fuck the school's rules. If she needs to implement a self-defense tool, the last thing you will be concerned with is whether or not she will get kicked out of school. If she doesn't have to implement an "evil tool" then no one will ever be the wiser. I feel the same way about state laws, but a lot of risk and responsibility come with that mindset....
    Andrew

    "As for France and other lands we have taken from them, they have no right to dispute them since they could not defend them...."
    -King Arthur

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    Re: Pepper Spray for daughter at college?

    Saber Red works really well if your going the pepper spray route.
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