308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

[MontanaMarine]

I'm doing some testing with this combo.

Here are some chrono results

Win Brass, fireformed, neck-sized
CCI 200 primer
20.5" bbl, 1/12 twist. (Rem chamber/throat)

208 AMax (moly'd)
3.00" OAL (kissing lands)
RL-17
46 gr - 2380 fps (velocities 15 feet from muzzle)
47 gr - 2430 fps
48 gr - 2480 fps
49 gr - 2535 fps
50 gr - 2570 fps
51 gr - 2645 fps

Velocities on the 46-48gr loads were lower than expected, with no signs of pressure at all. I suspect it is due to the roomy Remington chamber, long OAL, and moly. I used Quickload in the workup, but if I share that data, I'll have to kill you.....sorry.

Here's the Crash Test Dummy with some loads prepped for chrono/pressure analysis. 49-51 gr RL17...

[desertHK]

Surprising to see that the velocity is a bit low for the amount of powder. Just wondering if the bullet grains is too heavy for it.

For my 208 AMAX in 308 stick with 44 grains of RL15, I got about 2650 fps.

For my 243 stick using the 105 grains bullets (amax) at 40.4 grains of RL17, I get about the same velocity as 40.6 grains of N550, which is 3000 fps.

[Niles Coyote]

Originally Posted By: DesertHK

For my 208 AMAX in 308 stick with 44 grains of RL15, I got about 2650 fps.

DesertHK, how long is your barrel?

[desertHK]

My stick is an AIAW 26" barrel with a 1:12" twist.

[MontanaMarine]

I've used RL15 too. 44gr gave 2480 fps in this rifle, with moly, Win brass, and 22" bbl.

My chamber is obviously fairly roomy. Add that to roomy brass, moly, and long oal, it all adds up.

[pc3]

So a 1/12 twist will work for pills this heavy ?

[MontanaMarine]

1/12 may not work in all cases, considering different atmospheric conditions. I cannot say.

It has worked pretty good for me. These targets were shot in this 1/12 barrel at a MV of 2480 fps. Load was 44gr RL15, moly'd 208, CCI 200, Win brass.

100 yards:

560 yards:

1120 yards (same rifle as above, in different stock):

[Belisarius]

Fine shooting!

[kombayotch]

I think the moly is probably working against you in this case. I don't think it's a good match with short barrels and slow powders. Without it, I would suspect 48 gr. would put you over 2500 fps.

[MontanaMarine]

Updated the initial post with velocity data on the 49-51 gr charges.

No excess pressure signs.

Next I'll load up a few of the 51gr/2650 fps load and see how they do for accuracy.

[mdesign]

Informative as usual and great shooting.

Remind me again why you shoot moly?

[MontanaMarine]

Moly reduces friction and fouling.

Apparently not an issue with some of the better barrels out there.

[Short-bus]

I'm just posting to subscibe to the thread. I'm working on a 208amax and RL17 load. Have gotten some great accuracy results, however I don't have a chrono right now (working on getting one to borrow) so I don't have velocity data. I got to use a chrono once for 5 rounds and now I don't see how I can load develop without one.

Today I shot from 47.0grains to 48.5, no pressure signs on the hottest loads. I suspect that the 48.5gr load is approaching an accuracy node, or it could be getting away, need to find out.

Branden

[ChadTRG42]

Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover

now I don't see how I can load develop without one.

Totally agree! I would be lost without it. It tells me just as much as the group does, maybe more.

[Short-bus]

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42

Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover

now I don't see how I can load develop without one.

Totally agree! I would be lost without it. It tells me just as much as the group does, maybe more.

I need to talk to the Missouri Department of Conservation (they run the public ranges around here) and suggest that they get some chrono's at the range to use. They bore sight rifles for free, and they have spotting scopes to use, why not have some chronographs at the ranges as well!

Branden

[Belisarius]

You went to 51.0gr. with 208s? Awesome! Can't wait to try it! I've shot some 190s with 51gr. of RL-17 and loved them, but 208, wow! Great info, thanks!!!

[ChadTRG42]

Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42

Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover

now I don't see how I can load develop without one.

Totally agree! I would be lost without it. It tells me just as much as the group does, maybe more.

I need to talk to the Missouri Department of Conservation (they run the public ranges around here) and suggest that they get some chrono's at the range to use. They bore sight rifles for free, and they have spotting scopes to use, why not have some chronographs at the ranges as well!

Branden

Well, I give it a week or less before someone puts a bullet where it's not supposed to go (into the chrono). It is very easy to hit the chrono, and most people at a shooting range have a hard time hitting stuff at 100, let alone through a hole in line with the target. I guess if you got a deposit, then why not!

[Short-bus]

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42

Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42

Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover

now I don't see how I can load develop without one.

Totally agree! I would be lost without it. It tells me just as much as the group does, maybe more.

I need to talk to the Missouri Department of Conservation (they run the public ranges around here) and suggest that they get some chrono's at the range to use. They bore sight rifles for free, and they have spotting scopes to use, why not have some chronographs at the ranges as well!

Branden

Well, I give it a week or less before someone puts a bullet where it's not supposed to go (into the chrono). It is very easy to hit the chrono, and most people at a shooting range have a hard time hitting stuff at 100, let alone through a hole in line with the target. I guess if you got a deposit, then why not!

Good point, I keep forgetting that people like myself that put a lot of thought, and effort into doing things thoughtfully, carefully, and safely are extremely few.

Branden

[Asm1]

here is my results on an 18.5" 308
208 AMAX naked
LC/LR brass 210m
2.305oj
46.5 RL17
after testing my load is 2470 FPS..

[MontanaMarine]

Did some accuracy checks today with this one:

308 Win
Win brass
208 AMax, moly'd
CCI 200
3.00 OAL
51 gr RL-17
2650 fps.

I intended to go long and check some drops so I bolted on the 16X Super Sniper. Shot two groups to get a 100 yard zero. First was four shots into .65", second was three shots into .65" again.

I then went out to a 1 moa wide white rock at 1320 yards. Dialed 46 moa per Quicktarget. Wind seemed very low and almost 6 oclock so I didn't dial any wind. First round was 1 mil left. I held one mil right, and the second and third shots were hits.

[psinclair]

Thanks for the info Shane....nice real world testing...may have to kill my bull elk with that bullet this fall.

I've got 25lbs of RL17...........grin!

[JRose]

Fuck those 155 pussy pills, it's the year of the heavies baby!!!!

[kain279]

Looks promising, I'd love to give 208s a try with RL-17 in my Savage, especially since the DBM will allow for a very long OAL. Unfortunately my chamber is pretty tight, less than 2.85" to the lands with 155 class bullets. I think if anywhere near 2700fps could be done with 24-26" barrels then when I rebarrel I will make sure the chamber is cut with a long throat.

[MontanaMarine]

Sounds like a plan!

I'm going to do some testing with this powder in the 30-06 one of these days. It might make a good powder/bullet to serve both the 308 and the 30-06, and simplify logistics.

A couple pics from today's test:


I know Frank doesn't want to see 3 and 4 shot groups, but this is really to illustrate that the 1/12 twist barrel does stabilize these things at 308Win velocity. This was my sight-in target. I'll punch out 10-rounder at 300 yards for the official group pic:


Rifle with the 16X Super Duper Sniper onboard. I love the rear-focus. Very easy for a southpaw to work in the prone bipod position:

[Onemoretime]

I'm looking forward to seeing the 30-06 testing as I have some of the RL17 as well.

[Short-bus]

Those groups look pretty much identical to the groups i'm getting, albeit lower powder charges. I haven't pushed up too high yet, 48.5gr is the highest i've done with Lapua brass thus far. I'm getting a chrono so the next time I get out, i'll have a chrono to get velocity data with.

My best group is a .202, however, 3 shots so I can't post a pic. But my last outing with my load development yielded an average group size of .63" for 8 groups.

My next outing will have 5 shot groups and chrono data though, something I can post on here.

Branden

[sandwarrior]

Originally Posted By: PGS

Thanks for the info Shane....nice real world testing...may have to kill my bull elk with that bullet this fall.

I've got 25lbs of RL17...........grin!

You saw this coming DIDN'T YOU???!! [img]<>/grin.gif[/img] Oh well, I just finished my first pound and bought my first five pound container. So I've at least got that much. I plan to do a lot of reloading with it.

I've tried it now with .243, 6mm Rem, 6-.284 25 WSSM and 7x57. The .243 and 6mm were unbelievable velocity. I actually got 3620 with 80 gr. bullets. Here's what I chrono'ed. 3500 with flat base 90 gr. Speers (26" barrel .243) 3450 with 24" 6mm Rem. The best is awesome accuracy with 95 gr. VLDs out of the 6mm moving at 3200. the accuracy with the 6-.284 was really good, but velocity hung down around 3150. Which seemed odd to me. Next best is the 25 WSSM which pushed a 115 Wildcat @ 3080. 90 fps better than my standard H4350X load but not as hot. I got the same velocity with my 7x57 as I normally get with H4350X, 2660. The 140's only got 2750 before pressure started capping off. The interesting thing about this powder is I've run it well over 2 gr. too hot and never popped a primer.

[kain279]

MM, what is the elevation where you shoot?

[MontanaMarine]

Elevation is 4500 ft.

[sandwarrior]

Shane,

Do you ever shoot up at Prickly pear or do you have a place over where you're at on the East side?

[mdesign]

I wonder how RL17 would work in a 300wsm with the 208Amax?

[MontanaMarine]

I shoot on public land over on this side of the valley. Usually vicinity Hellgate Gulch.

[esorensen]

Shane, what brass are you using? Sorry disregard.

[Short-bus]

I just got a new chrono today (thank you dusty_jacket), looking foward to next week and getting some range time. Have to work tomorrow so I can't go [img]<>/frown.gif[/img]

I'll keep y'alls up to date.

Branden

[sandwarrior]

Originally Posted By: mdesign

I wonder how RL17 would work in a 300wsm with the 208Amax?

It was purpose designed for high pressure low volume cases like the WSM's and WSSM's. It fits well with other 'non-magnum' new cases of the same criteria. I'm thinking it should do well in the .300 WSM. I have to toughen up my shoulder to try it though. Still not healed enough to where I don't mind magnum kick.

[psinclair]

RL17 works real well in my 6XC...39.0(summer) and 39.2(colder) with the 105 Scenar for 3100fps, nice round primers, easy bolt lift. 7 reloads on the cases so far and primer pockets are still tight. BTW not using moly.

[Graham]

Interesting use of RE17 in a .308.

The 208's appear to be working well, but I'm not sure that use of any bullet heavier than 180 grains isn't counter-productive in a supersonic .308. Now, for a 30-06, it could be ideal.

That said, and in defense of low velocities, in one test I got best accuracy from 175SMK's at 2400fps. But I don't shoot them at that speed.

I have gotten 190SMK's to 2695fps, but in my experience the 190's flat-out suck in .308, and I gave up on them.

Nice use of the Super Sniper scope: it proves one doesn't need a Schmidt/Bender to shoot excellent groups and be competitive with reliable tracking.

[MontanaMarine]

The 208 beats lighter bullets in wind drift, and terminal energy.

At 2650 fps MV, 1000 yd ballistics at 4500' el:

El correction: 29.5 moa
Drift: 5.5 moa (57.9"), at 10 mph full value.
Retained velocity: 1602 fps
Retained energy: 1186 ft-lbs

[kain279]

Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine

The 208 beats lighter bullets in wind drift, and terminal energy.

At 2650 fps MV, 1000 yd ballistics at 4500' el:

El correction: 29.5 moa
Drift: 5.5 moa (57.9"), at 10 mph full value.
Retained velocity: 1602 fps
Retained energy: 1186 ft-lbs

Not to mention that it will still be supersonic well beyond 1000yds. I think this combo will take .308 to the next level ballistically, especially if velocity can creep into the 2700 range with 24-26" barrels.

[mdesign]

This is very good performance from a 308 with a heavy bullet.

It looks like the 4350s have a similar burn rate to RL17.

[esorensen]

I've run the numbers too, and they are quite impressive. I shot the 175 SMk out of my AR10T 24" at 2650 for the last few years. The 208/210 at that same speed seems like an order of magnitude decrease in wind drift.

I just put together my 24" Broughton 5C 10 twist/Savage together. I have it throated for 155's. I have a hand throater that will bring the OAL to what ever I want. I'm going to start shallower like around 2.850-2.895. It is only 2.750ish right now. I tried to get the RL17/208 to fit but it won't without a big crunch.

All this aside, I just ordered some bullets from Northwest Custom Projectile just for fun. They are an aluminum tipped 180 with a claimed bc of over .700. I only got 10 of them to see if they even work. Expensive as hell, but should be interesting anyway.

Shane, do you purchase the 208's mollied or naked and do it yourself?

[MontanaMarine]

I buy the 208s plain, and moly them myself.

The 208 is a long bullet and will definitely use up some powder space if seated at normal oal. At 3.00" oal the bearing surface of the bullet is still .324" into the case, and the bottom of the boat tail is .544" into the case.

I'm using a few techniques to make this load work in my rifle:

- using roomy Winchester brass to maximize powder space
- only neck-sizing to maximize powder space
- seating to 3.00" oal to kiss lands and maximize powder space
- using moly to reduce friction/pressure to allow more powder/velocity.

So, it's not just a matter of switching bullet/powder and continuing to march. But the ballistic improvements are there if you want them.

This bullet/powder would make a good case for a 308 on a long action if magazine use is desired. Of course it's hard not to just step up to the 30-06 or another longer case if going long action. Just another choice.

[kain279]

Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine

I buy the 208s plain, and moly them myself.

The 208 is a long bullet and will definitely use up some powder space if seated at normal oal. At 3.00" oal the bearing surface of the bullet is still .324" into the case, and the bottom of the boat tail is .544" into the case.

I'm using a few techniques to make this load work in my rifle:

- using roomy Winchester brass to maximize powder space
- only neck-sizing to maximize powder space
- seating to 3.00" oal to kiss lands and maximize powder space
- using moly to reduce friction/pressure to allow more powder/velocity.

So, it's not just a matter of switching bullet/powder and continuing to march. But the ballistic improvements are there if you want them.

This bullet/powder would make a good case for a 308 on a long action if magazine use is desired. Of course it's hard not to just step up to the 30-06 or another longer case if going long action. Just another choice.

Wow, the case fill % must be very high with 51gr of powder in there.

[MontanaMarine]

51 gr fills the case to about the bottom of the neck in my fireformed and neck-sized Winchester brass. There is some compression going on to accomodate the boat tail, but it's not bad.

[kain279]

Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine

51 gr fills the case to about the bottom of the neck in my fireformed and neck-sized Winchester brass. There is some compression going on to accomodate the boat tail, but it's not bad.

How dense is RL 17 compared to say, Varget? I would have expected 51gr to be well up into the neck. I'm really, really tempted to buy some RL 17 and 208s and give this a try. On paper this looks like a real winner. My Savage has a 1:10" twist 24" barrel and a magazine that will accomodate 3" COAL and I have about 5k new Winchester brass (it is all I use in .308 because of its capacity) and lots of once fired. I need to get my paws on some bullets first though and see how far out it takes them to get into the lands. If it is too short (I think it will be due to other bullets I've checked this measurement on) I can always get a custom reamer made and/or rebarrel to 26" while I'm at it.

[esorensen]

I have not gone the moly route before. I purposely had the reamer made and throater combo so I could do it all as it were. I have used a drop tube quite a bit and it helps considerably in getting the powder to settle in thee without so much crunch. Neck sizing does have its benefits. I'm not sure if the old 03A3 would like or handle the bullet weight/pressure if I go the 06 route.

[MontanaMarine]

Quickload calcs my load density as 109% with 51 gr RL17, vs 118% with 51 gr Varget.

[Short-bus]

I found that if I pour the powder into the case slowly, and let it 'free fall' into the funnel from a couple inches up I can get it to settle much better into the case without having to compress it when I seat the bullet.

Branden

[doc76251]

RE-17 is significantly more dense than Varget when it comes to filling the case.

I've got a batch of 210 Bergers loaded if I can ever get to the range. I really need to bring my portable reloading set up out for a full day of shooting across the eyes.

Cheers,

Doc

[Short-bus]

I went to the range today with my new chrono and put 31rounds downrange over the chrono. I was testing 2 different loads of RL17 and 208amax's that shot well the last time I was out. Pretty much everything I shot today was under an inch, had one group with a flier that most likely was me as the velocity data doesn't support it going low. I'll post velocity data right now with a corrosponding group number that can be referenced when I post the target later.

Load #1 10 shots, 2 groups of 5
47.0gr RL17 .020" off lands

Grp1 Grp2
1. 2474 2496
2. 2473 2456
3. 2527 2465
4. 2564 2477
5. Err1 2485

Load #2 10 shots, 2 groups of 5
48.5gr RL17 .020" off lands

Grp3 Grp4
1. 2572 2551
2. 2615 2608
3. Err1 2498
4. 2546 2512
5. 2534 2540

Extension of ladder test to find rifles max

Load #3
49.0gr RL17 .020" off lands

Grp5
1. 2564
2. 2562
3. 2560

Load #4
49.3gr RL17 .020" off lands

Grp6
1. 2581
2. 2593
3. 2607

Load #5 OAL Adjustment check on Load #2
48.5gr RL17 kissing lands

Grp7
1. 2538
2. 2511
3. 2530
4. 2518
5. 2577

I could use a little analysis on the chrono results. I think there is some contamination in there and I don't know of a cause. I do know that when the guy in the booth next to me would fire his .270 my chrono would display an Error1 message which means that the 2nd sensor detected something, however the 1st sensor did not.

This is my first time out recording everything with a chrono. I think I did it right as I recorded each shot velocity, as well as placement in the group, that way if there was a flyer that I didn't call, I know which shot in the group it was by it's placement on the target, then I can review the velocity data, and check out the fired case as well.

My Extreme Spread seems to be rather high IMO with the exception being the hotter loads of 49.0 and 49.1, but they were only 3 shot strings. I was hoping to get my ES down lower overall, i'm worried that the Load #3 (group5) was a fluke, and if I go to test it again won't yeild repeatable results, and will result in me spending time chasing a false solution.

Any input folks?

Branden