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Thread: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

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    Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    I mentioned a time or two that I purchased a Mann Accuracy Device from the CMP. The Mann Device is used by the Army and Ammo supplies to test ammo for the militar.

    Mine is a 5.56 w/a Remington Action. It has a Kart Barrel. There is not much information about the Mann Device out there, and I've been working with another CMP Forum poster, Bob, on trying to find as much information as we could.

    He gave me a list of "Kart" businesses and we narrowed it down to Kart Sporting Arms, the maker of the Kart 22 conversions for M1911s.

    I contacted Fred Kart and discovered the maker of the my barrel was indeed Fred Kart. The Army was buying 45 match pistol barrels from Kart and couldn't figure out how he was making such accurate barrels. When they, the Army Inspectors, visited Kart Sporting Arms they were impressed to say the least. They asked about making test barrels in 5.56 when they were developing ammo for the 1:7 twist M16 barrels.

    This was just after the army switched from the 'A1 to the 1:7 twist A2 M16s. They were gearing up for the First Golf War and were concerned they didn't have enough ammo.

    According to Fred Kart they made aprox. 5000 barrels. The New York Shop wasn't big enough to produce the barrels so they moved to NC. The barrels were used in accuracy and pressure testing ammo.

    Kart didn't make the actions, they sent the barrels to the Picatinny Arsenal, NJ where the Mann Device was made, and tested in an indoor range. Then taken to Ft Dix NJ for testing outdoors at 700 yards.

    Fred Kart as mentioned didn't have anything to do with the device except the barrels, but when the Army was having problems with the accuracy of the tracer ammo, they brought Kart to NJ to help come up with a solution. Kart pointed out that the case was causing the problems, not consistent. Kart advised annealing the case at several points but the Army decided that would be too time consuming, not cost effective so I guess that's why tracer ammo isn't accurate today.

    Fred Kart's discussing the case problems matches the information about case prep in the "Secrets of the Huston Warehouse" and the Army testing of Lake City's ammo in the link Bob provided ne.

    Kart gave me the name John Lucianetti, from the Army who helped him with the barrels. I have a call to Mr Lucianetti who should be home later this morning.

    I also sent a e-mail to the Public Relations Officer at the Picatinny Arsenal requesting any information they could provide for the Mann Device.

    As a side note, when Kart made the barrels they were accurate to within 1/50,000 thousands of inch in a 20 inch barrel. The Army couldn't believe this so they brought in several air gages to confirm Kart's information.

    I'll post more when I get more information.

    Mann Accuracy Device:



    An old photo of the Mann Device being used:

    Kraig Stuart
    Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
    USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78


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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Great post, Kraig! [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

    Please post more pictures of the Mann device, and information/reports of how it is used, etc.

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Very interesting!

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Very cool indeed. The bigger question is whether Kart is still set up to build 22 barrels?

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    what does the device do?

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Quote:
    The bigger question is whether Kart is still set up to build 22 barrels?


    I asked that question, nah, they only do pistol barrels now.

    Quote:
    what does the device do?


    The Mann device is use to test the accuracy of military ammunition. Besides the Army, contractors who supply ammo to the military use them to keep their ammo with in specs.

    The rest itself is nothing more then a V-shaped trough of steel that is mounted to a concrete block. The trough had screws that adjust it for elevation and windage.

    A scope is set in the trough and the screws adjust it until it lines up.

    A heavy cylinderical barrel and action chamberd for a give cartridge is laid in the V. The heavy barrel will lay in the V just as the scope did. Its fired remotely. It will move do to recoil but it will fall back in the V and will be lined up. Every time the gun is loaded and fired and put back in the rest it will always point in precisely the same direction as before giving a perfect test for ammunition.

    Gen Hatcher, in his book, "Textbook for Pistols and Revolvers" has pictures of a Mann Device to test 45 ACP ammo. The heavy barrel is fitted to a 1903 Springfield Action.

    The CMP Forum has a sub catagory for discussing the Mann Device.

    http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=102

    You'll find more informatin there, plus pictures. Also you see some of the guys converted their Mann Barreled Action to extremely accurate rifles.
    Kraig Stuart
    Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
    USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78


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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Just for poops and grins I scanned a picture form Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers showing the Mann device for testing 45 ACP ammo mentioned above. Its a 5 inch barrel on a 1903 Springfield action. Note the remote camera switch use to pull the trigger without disturbing the device.

    Kraig Stuart
    Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
    USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78


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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Thanks Kraig, I've read about them and seen a few of these devices in a local ammunition factory, but never seen them while firing, and didn't pay atention to the mounting fixture. Now I want to arrange another visit!

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    That's an interesting read. I never knew Fred ever made rifle barrels.

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Kraig,
    There was one of these for sale at the KC gun show this last weekend. It was on a O3 Springfield action. I did not notice the cal, but the barrel was about like the one you picture. It was on a guy's table that had a great deal of CMP stuff.
    I just remembered it was marked 30 cal carbine? . With the question mark at the end.

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    The CMP has some 7.62 devices on 1903a3 action. I can't find any information that the CMP sold any 30 cal carbine Mann's but one was sold by the Rock Island Auction House.

    http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/1877

    Just out of coursity, what was the guy asking for the device?
    Kraig Stuart
    Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
    USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78


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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Kraig,
    I really cannot remember but I think in the range of 1000-1300. I bought a rifle and did quite a bit of business with him and was more focused on my transactions. I just looked at it while he was doing paper work. I have his card if you want me to check.

    Richard

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    Re: Kart Barrels, Mann Accuracy Device

    Nah that's close enough, don't want to appear too nosy.
    Kraig Stuart
    Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
    USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78