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Thread: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

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    Skyking
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    My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Guys, this one has been driving me crazy.

    So here is the situation. Some of you may have seen my long range shooting videos. If not here you go http://www.youtube.com/user/Stainles...d?feature=mhum So I would like to think that it is not the shooter, or in this case shooters. My Uncle saw the videos and wanted to learn how to shoot at those distances, and get his gun up to speed. So we have been shooting all summer, and fall practicing and getting good dope. I am shooting a Gap 7wsm pushing the Berger 180 vld's. He is shooting a factory Savage 7mm Rem Mag shooting the Berger 168 vld's. Both have the Nightforce 5.5-22x50 NP-2dd

    Well we bought two cow elk tags to try and kill from 800-1000 yards. Nether of our new guns had blood on them yet so this would be a good test to see what they would do. We go out shooting every few weeks at our 1000+ yard spot shooting the steel. Then we would move to small rocks anywhere from 400 yards out to 1400 yards. We would range small rocks, dial in our dope and send it. Moving around to different yardages pretending they where elk and deer. Everything inside of 1000 yards where first round hits. We where feeling very confident. I have the Swarovski range finders, and he has the Lecia 1200. I have the Kestrel 3500 for the weather. I set my altitude to zero, then use the station pressure for the baro setting on my Itouch. It has been spot on every time we go out. Here is a picture the day before the hunt of my Uncles 3 shot group from 1009 yards. He was so excited we had to drive down and take this picture. Which is sweet, knowing that he spent $650 on that factory Savage. The temp was 40 degrees calm wind. 30% humidity. We are shooting at an elevation of 6500 feet.

    So the next day is the hunt. The conditions of the hunt are this.
    30 Degrees
    60% Humidity
    8500 Feet off of Station Pressure
    Wind dead clam.
    So five mins into the hunt we have some elk spotted. There is a nice big cow 795 yards standing broad side. Not paying any attention that we are all there. So I set up in the middle of the road. We are shooting from bipods and sand bags. Just like practice. I range the elk. Put the info into the BulletFlight on the Itouch. Dial my scope. Camera is ready. Fire! Shoot a foot over her back. What the heck! So I hold on her front knee and put it threw her lungs. It takes five more shoots to put her down. One tough elk. All of my shots are high. My uncle later that day gets a 1000 yard shot and shoots two feet over her back. He did not end up getting one that day. We went back the next day. Same conditions as before. We find him one 989 yards. He shoots over her back the first shot. Hits her the next one after dialing down a few clicks. Shot two more shots over her back. Dialed down again. Hit her high, broke her back and she dropped.

    So my question is this....

    Why would we both be shooting high? I know that BulletFlight compensates for the higher elevation. It is driving me crazy trying to figure out why our dope was so off the next day. After I shot mine the first day. I thought maybe I got a bad range. So when my Uncle shot his. I made sure to double range it with both range finders. I got the same reading. So I am stumped why all of our shoots where high. I am going to take my steel target up there and see if I can figure out what went wrong. Its got me.






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    Gunny Sergeant
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Not trying to bag on ya but in my own personal opinion (FWIW) if it takes you six rounds to drop an animal you have no business shooting at it. It doesn't seem like a very humane way to harvest an animal. I was brought up hunting but have never taken six rounds to dispatch an animal. I suggest you work on the basics before trying for advanced (LR) hunting. That being said the extra 2K feet of elevation 6500-8500 could throw ya off a foot or so at roughly 800 yards. Did you re-zero at 8500?
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    FWIW I'm not an expert and I'm not too familiar with Bullet flight's program (as in I don't own it) but are you inputing your elevation or the actual barometric pressure at your location??

    You can have varying pressure from day to day even at the same elevation.

    Were you hunting in the same area that you've been shooting through the summer?

    Any chance your angle of fire was un-accounted for?

    Not doubting your abilities, but firing at a different point in the breathing cycle can cause vertical stringing. Could be a factor especially before the kill shot.



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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I have had the same experience and here is two things to consider. I did the same things you did with my 300wm and I went out shooting at rocks and such and was spot on. Then, I put my rifle on my quad and went on some bumpy roads and when I arrived at my next spot I was consistently shooting high (nightforce nxs scope).

    After re-zeroing the scope it was still shooting high and here is something I found interesting. I use bulletflight and Ballistic FTE software. At 70 degrees they are both spot on, But when it started getting colder bulletflight was getting farther off from what I was actually getting. The FTE software was still spot on. I chronographed my bullets also that day to make sure temperature wasn't affecting my speeds and they were within 10 fps. I now only use the FTE software because of this finding.

    This is just my .02 cents.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I run into this from time to time,and I think alot of it has to do with sunlight,when it's sunny ,I shoot about 1moa higher than on an overcast day,regardless of temperature.Just something to think about.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: Sumpter Steve
    Not trying to bag on ya but in my own personal opinion (FWIW) if it takes you six rounds to drop an animal you have no business shooting at it. It doesn't seem like a very humane way to harvest an animal. I was brought up hunting but have never taken six rounds to dispatch an animal. I suggest you work on the basics before trying for advanced (LR) hunting. That being said the extra 2K feet of elevation 6500-8500 could throw ya off a foot or so at roughly 800 yards. Did you re-zero at 8500?


    Ditto. Shooting elk at 800-1K to "see what we could do" makes me sick.

    As far as your shooting, I'd recommend a Kestrel 4XXX series, a btter ballistics program that uses DA instead of a lot of variables that can have their input mucked. Are you running ACI's on your rifles? because angles matter at distance?

    I assume you logged your dope from the encounter so you now have real data on what your rifle and load do in those conditions so the next animal you may take doesn't have such a f*cked up time dying......



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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Quote:
    ...a btter (sic) ballistics program that uses DA instead of a lot of variables that can have their input mucked.


    A Kestrel will display temperature, humidity, and pressure, which are precisely the variables used in calculating density altitude. Only the temperature changes very fast.

    A person incapable of entering three variables correctly into a ballistic program probably should find something to do with less potential harm than shooting long distances.

    And, so far, no one has mentioned variations in muzzle velocity as a result of temperature, which must also be corrected for.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Skyking,

    You'll probably get some grief about hunting at these distances. Whatever. I'm not here to make moral judgements. But I do have something to bring up that I don't see addressd much that I do think is applicable in this case.

    I'm not sure *exactly* what happened in your case. I've had it happen to me when I changed AO's, but because I picked up the wrong ammo box and it had a newly developed load running 75 fps faster than my field data. [img]<>/wink.gif[/img] I had good field data, but I was shooting at a higher elevation than normal, so it took me a while to figure out what was going on. But because I was shooting rocks, I could make a simple field adjustment and the rest of the day went fine. But it did teach me something, and that is that our ballistic software solution is as much of the total package as scope, rifle, ammo, tracking etc, and MUST be proofed if we expect to show up anywhere USA and get a first round hit at distance.

    A lot of guys show up at a 1000 yds or further and dial in their JBM or FTE and can't figure out why they don't hit. When you test your theoretical data in the field (As you have done, repeatedly. I've seen your videos and read your threads, so it's clear to me that you didn't just *show up* and expect to shoot an elk at 1000 yds) you learn the effect of the nuances of velocity spread, chrono accuracy, real BC's, elevation tracking accuracy, etc. What the ballistic software *says* really doesn't matter, it's what it takes for you and your rifle to hit at KD.

    So maybe you finally get your software and field data to match at a given AO, and then move, as in your case. It is possible, as stated above that software did not handle that change well, and the ONLY way to really know that is to test our software solution in a number of AO's and conditions so we KNOW how it's going to behave. Then we can have the same confidence we have when we're at our pet shooting spot. Yet another variable that MUST be confirmed.

    I think I understand how you must feel. When I shoot at "my spot", 1000 yds. really isn't even a challenge. Hits in the orange first round cold bore are getting really common and I've thought more and more of the potential of engaging an animal at that distance. But your experience is *exactly* the question mark in my head. "Can I change locations and be THAT confident?". Shoot at steel or rock? Sure. A big mulie or an elk? Not yet for me.

    It may prove that there is a software solution that will prove to be *more* accurate, but I would argue that until you've gathered the field data from a variety of elevations (or at least where you plan to hunt) as well as different temperatures, to verify the solution it gives you, you'll not have the confidence you desire.

    John
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    Skyking
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Thanks guys for the input. Just so you know. This is not something that I just decided to do one day. I have been hunting since I was 8 years old. We shot a deer last year at 600 yards no problems. I have put over 900 rounds down my gun since January of last year shooing long range. As you can see in my videos, I think I can shot. Not saying I am not perfect and could never miss. But with all the shots being high from me, as well as my uncle. Using the same info off of Bulletfight. It seams like something else is going on. I know its different in the heat of the hunt, but not really. That's way all the practice.

    I am kind of thinking it was something to do with BulletFlight as well. I also have the Shooter program on my Droid. It has always been spot on at our shooting spot. I never did try it out while hunting. I may need to go back and see what info the Droid spits out. There was a five degree up angle that I put into the program. I did not re-zero to the 8500 hunting elevation. Did not think it would change that much from 6500 feet.

    When we got to our hunting spot. About an hour from my front door. We pulled into the parking area, and could see elk on the mountain already. Just barely light enough to see them. Swaovski optics are sweet! As we where getting ready. I pulled out my Kestrel 3500 and got the actual conditions. I use station pressure. Put all the info into Bulletflight. Ten mins later I had my elk down.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    One other thought. I do NOT want to make this thread a pissing contest about the ethics of LR hunting, but if events occurred as described, I would argue that his second shot *WAS* a lung shot, and would have proved to have been fatal *eventually* therefore NOT inhumane. No gut shots or holes through kneecaps.

    Shooting 5 more times proved to be MORE humane, because it means that the cow was not wandering around waiting to die from asphyxia. Not to mention the fact that it did not then need to be tracked for a half hour.

    I shot a 350 lb. mule deer through the heart at 75 yards on the first shot. He bolted. My hunting partner and I both put 4 more rounds in him in quick succession, all in the vitals. Why? He was headed at full speed for thick brambles and neither one of us wanted to track him in there or drag him out. We wanted him DOWN.

    Big mulies and elk are tough animals. Add a little adrenaline and sometimes you have to convince them that they really are dead, they just don't know it yet.

    .02

    John
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I'll make a moral judgement. No hunter worth his ass will try to take a shot he is not more than reasonably sure that he can make cleanly. Cleanly means one shot one kill. Not 6.

    Having said that if your distance is 200 or a 1000 yards, well have at it.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I suggest you make a DA chart and go out to different areas in different elevations at different temps and tweek your DOPE. I'm with Lindy on muzzle velocity but actual testing will help. For what it's worth, I don't think you'll try to take an animal at long range until you get your problem fixed. The only ethics question is do you have enough energy in that round at that distance to take a large animal down. But you seem like a stand up guy who took a very calculated shot (unlike the 90% of other hunters who simply SWAG it). Keep us updated to what you find when you test out your theories.

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    Skyking
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: jrob300
    Skyking,


    A lot of guys show up at a 1000 yds or further and dial in their JBM or FTE and can't figure out why they don't hit. When you test your theoretical data in the field (As you have done, repeatedly. I've seen your videos and read your threads, so it's clear to me that you didn't just *show up* and expect to shoot an elk at 1000 yds) you learn the effect of the nuances of velocity spread, chrono accuracy, real BC's, elevation tracking accuracy, etc. What the ballistic software *says* really doesn't matter, it's what it takes for you and your rifle to hit at KD.


    Thanks John,
    Yeah I knew that a lot of guys would give me a hard time about hunting at these ranges. I really did not even want to post this knowing how you guys can be. But I also know the would be a few cool guys that really understand where I am coming from. I figured that if I can learn something new here, it would be worth it. Just trying to learn from what I did wrong and right. I had all the confidence in the world going into this hunt. If there was any doubt that I could not make the shot. I wouldn't have even attempted the hunt. I mean with that 3 three shot group, the day before the hunt, from 1009 yards and the first one was the cold bore. How could we go wrong. Back in June I went to Alaska fishing and took my gun with me then. We set up some milk jugs at 951 yards. We were only two clicks lower from what Ballistic calculator was calling for. So that was an elevation change from 6500 feet to sea level. That is why I am so surprised to see the change for going up 2000 feet.

    It sounds like I need to go back to the hunting spot and take the steel target and get some dope from that high elevation.

    Also My 2nd shot was a double lung shot. Next one was through her neck just in front of her chest. 3rd and 4th two inches apart upper shoulder. Last one blew the top half of her heart out. I have it all on film. By-the-way. Bullet speed on impact. 2108Fps 1777Lbs

    Thanks again guys for your help. It gives me a lot to think about.

    Cory

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: Skyking
    I have it all on film.


    Cory,

    Wouldn't mind seeing that if you feel OK posting it. If not PM me the link.

    John
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    There is no such thing as "The Perfect Scope". But I continue to look...

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Atmospheric conditions can be a big factor, and error increases greatly with range, as vertical component increases.

    Our problem (with white tale), was ranging. My Swaro has trouble with white tale beyond 600-650Yds (operator error?). It may range Elk sized animals OK, I haven't tried. The only reliable method we have found is range markers. We've decided to limit myself to marked ranges for the foreseeable future, starting @650Yds max. When I grow up, I may try something different.

    We also decided to use a 338LM beyond 800Yds or so. Redneck logic dictates that one large hole may be better than two smaller ones.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Have you tried plugging in your field conditions into various other calculators/programs to see if there are any different data that would have been yielded by that days variables. I would be interested to see if another program would have made a hit when the others failed.

    That being said, it sounds like you did everything in your power to ensure that you had spent the time getting things in order so that the long shot would no longer be a guess, but a more calculated shot. I think that it was an honorable thing to put the extra rounds into the cow after the first hit. Any bullets recovered? I'd be interested to see if there was proper expansion/weight retention and to see if the bullets are performing well at that kind of range.

    Josh

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    well sir i must say you are a jackass to go anywere and brag or even talk about the fact that it took you that many shots to put down any animal.IM NOT HAMERING ON YOU FOR SHOOTING LONG RANGE just the fact that your trying to hunt without the obvious skill to do so.sorry i cant help with your dope question since that was the intent of your post.in my opinion dont hunt at those distances agian till your ready.if you would like to dispute anything i have stated here please feel free to call me so we dont start a fight on the hide.my phone is 307-299-5423 my name is monty long i hope to visit with you sir..rant off

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: motodog
    well sir i must say you are a jackass to go anywere and brag or even talk about the fact that it took you that many shots to put down any animal.IM NOT HAMERING ON YOU FOR SHOOTING LONG RANGE just the fact that your trying to hunt without the obvious skill to do so.sorry i cant help with your dope question since that was the intent of your post.in my opinion dont hunt at those distances agian till your ready.if you would like to dispute anything i have stated here please feel free to call me so we dont start a fight on the hide.my phone is 307-299-5423 my name is monty long i hope to visit with you sir..rant off


    What part of double lung-punch and top half of the heart blown off did you miss? But this discussion belongs in the hunting forum, anyway. This is Beyond 1000 Yards with a DOPE question. Counter-rant off.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    One of the problems we all seem to have is the farther you go, the more 'stacked' the odds become. Meaning if you're off .-something on this and .-something on that and the altitude, and the angle...all add up to one foot.

    But, you adjusted and hit. And to be sure hit again and again, until you were sure she was down. Truth is I've seen a lot of that at short range. You did good because you figured out the difference and got on it. I've seen guys shoot another deer figuring the one they shot wasn't going down and they might as well get one. It's important that you stayed on it. And your uncle did the same.

    As noted: it happens. I only get mad when I come up on a wounded animal and no one is pursuing it. Fuck the DNR/Fish & Game. That animal is not going to suffer anymore.


    Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    &quot;The price of reclusion in the beauty of nature is poverty and namelessness. Or, perhaps, the price is itself the reward.&quot;
    -- James H. Sanford, in commentary on the poetry of Shih-Shu

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    i suppose i do stand corrected a bit.thank you for pointing out that he did continue and did put the animal down.i have seen to much of this out in the field during hunting season and it pisses me off a bunch.mr skyking it does appear that you are at least asking for help from a very good if not the best source of long range shooting available to people.but please practice alot more and be very sure of your shot before you pull the trigger at those distances.i personally think that the closer you can get to the animal during hunting season is were its at at least for me.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Leaving the hunting aside, I think far too many people turn out and shoot the same location & environment time after time & crow about their groups and success. Assuming constant ammo, rifle, scope and shooter the learning curve isn't going to great once you've figured out what to dial in.

    I am a big advocate of mixing up your range work in terms of elevation, angle, light, temperature etc and of course wind (not to mention changing ammo). I'm really looking forward to testing how I do when there is snow on the ground and a 30mph wind. Even shooting at the same location where I've learned the inputs in the summer I know that I'll be challenged in those cold, dark winter ones. Throw in some mountain/angle work too and I have no confidence I'll make first round hits but I do know I will learn.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I would first check temps from when you zero'd your rifle and compare them to the outside tems from when you were taking your shots at the elk.. No variable will change faster than temp.. other than the wind.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    My guess is range error. A bullet is dropping almost 1" per yard at 1000 yards. If your ranging is off 10 yards, then you are 10" off on your hit.

    10 yards in 1000, that is 1% which is the same as 1 yard in 100. I put new batteries in my rangefinder and I start getting differences that much from the older, yet working battery.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: Dave_
    Originally Posted By: motodog
    well sir i must say you are a jackass to go anywere and brag or even talk about the fact that it took you that many shots to put down any animal.IM NOT HAMERING ON YOU FOR SHOOTING LONG RANGE just the fact that your trying to hunt without the obvious skill to do so.sorry i cant help with your dope question since that was the intent of your post.in my opinion dont hunt at those distances agian till your ready.if you would like to dispute anything i have stated here please feel free to call me so we dont start a fight on the hide.my phone is 307-299-5423 my name is monty long i hope to visit with you sir..rant off


    What part of double lung-punch and top half of the heart blown off did you miss? But this discussion belongs in the hunting forum, anyway. This is Beyond 1000 Yards with a DOPE question. Counter-rant off.


    That's what I was thinking. Anyone that hasn't had a Die Hard animal, hasn't been hunting long enough. My uncle shot his elk last week 4 times at 350 yards with a 300WM, all good shots and the animal still ran 200 yards up the mountain. Some animals just wont stop until they bleed out regardless of what they are hit with, or how many times.
    There are some days we are just damn good. There are some days we are just lucky. Rarely those two come together and some amazing shit occurs. We need that to offset the days when we are not so good, not so lucky, and end up with flag draped coffins. -LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Jrob - great, well articulated response to Skyking.
    There is no "I" in team. But there are three "U's" in "Shut the Fu*k Up"

    Lighten up, Francis

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    JBM indicates:

    1000 -0.0 -0.0 35.3 3.4 2111.6 1.891 1781.7 1.176 207.0 19.8
    1020 -6.2 -0.6 36.9 3.5 2094.2 1.876 1752.6 1.205 212.1 19.9

    For stated velocity @1000Yds, 8500' Pressure altitude. Impact point varies 6" with each 20Yd range error, 10-12" (both with 100yd zeros) with 2000' pressure altitude change.

    Time of flight from 1000Yds to 1020Yds is 1.205 - 1.176Sec = .029 sec.

    Vertical speed of bullet is 6.2"/.029 Sec = 213.79IPS = 17.81FPS and is increasing proportionally to the square of time.

    It gets progressively worse as flight time increases.

    Point is, small range errors, small altitude errors cause pretty large impact errors. And the longer the flight time, the slower the horizontal component, and the larger the vertical component of velocity, and therefore the greater the potential for elevation error.

    On the other hand, 1000Yds is 36000 inches, 20" impact error is 0.055% of actual range to target. Pretty good stats. JMHO
    Noah built the ark before the earth had experienced rain, what faith........

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Thanks guys for giving me ideas on where to go with this. I am going to try and give you some more information.

    First off! This is the my 100 yard zero info that is stored on my Ipod in BulletFlight. For those of you that have never used this software. When you input a new firearm in the system you enter in all these fields from when you zeroed your rifle, and it saves it. I hardly ever go to a shooting range just to shoot 100 yards. I go to develop a load. I use H1000 which is suppose to be really temperature insensitive. Over my 8 shot string I ended up with a ES=9 SD=3.

    Muzzle velocity 2920fps
    Zero Range 99 yards Measured with a tape.
    Sight Height 2.0
    MOA Value .25 Did a scope tracking test using lindy's guide lines back when i bought the scope.
    Bullet mass=180
    B.C. .337 G7
    Temp 51
    Pressure 23.73 Station pressure=around 5800'
    Rh% 37

    So that is my 100 yard zero.

    Next up is the day before the hunt. This is where that three shot group from my uncle came from. It's my 1000 yard spot that is in all my video's.

    Range 1009 yards
    temp 56
    station pressure 24.53=around 6500'
    Rh% 45

    I shoot a five shot group on the steel that would of all been in the kill zone. We repaint the steel, now its my uncles turn. He then shots the three shot group. We had to go back and take a picture. So then we proceed to shot rocks, at different ranges inside of 1000 yards to make sure we are feeling 100%. We where feeling good so we decided it was time to go, and not waste ammo. I only load up 50 rounds at a time, and had 15 rounds left for the hunt. So if we put the practice conditions into Bulletflight. And we then put the range that I took my first shot at the elk was 791 yards. That give me 15.8 MOA of correction for my practice spot.

    Now the next day. The day of the hunt.
    Temp 30
    Pressure 21.98 station pressure.
    RH% 60
    Range 791=15.5 MOA

    So that is a difference of .3 of a MOA, from my practice spot conditions and elevation, to my hunting conditions and Elevation. To me that's not enough to miss over the back of an elk.

    I also have Shooter software for my Droid. If I put the same conditions in that software I get 15.7 MOA. So the two are right there.

    Now we are hunting on private property. The land owner, who is also the guide, had to be with us at all times and let us through the gate. He knew that I was looking for a long range shot. IF the conditions where right. So there are 6 of us there. My dad, brother, uncle, his boy and the guide. As we are unloading the four wheelers. I take out my Kestrel, and input all the weather readings into Bulletflight. As we are unloading, we can already see elk up on one of the ridges. So Jeff the guide asked. "How far are those elk then". "Could you shoot those". No they have to be like 2000 yards away. But let's see. So I try and get a range on them with my Swarovski range finders. Can't get a reading. Cant get a reading on anything. Dead battery. Good thing I came prepared with two extra new batteries. The elk where still to far to get a range, but now I was getting readings on trees and rocks. So we are good to go. My uncle had the Lecia 1200 range finders that he was carrying. So we head up the road a 1/4 of a mile and see more elk on a step hillside. They are all feeding on a hillside of sagebrush. I see one big old cow off by herself. I range her at 798. That works for me. The elk are not even spooked, and don't care that we are there. So no real big hurry. I lay down right in the road and set up there. While the guide is getting his spotting scope set up, and my brother is getting the camera ready. I ask my uncle what range he is getting. Same as me. I could range all around the elk and get good returns. 981 yards. Put that into my Ipod and dial up 15.5. I get her in my scope, and make sure my scope level is good. Wind is dead clam. No wind correction. I wait a few moments and ask is everyone ready, and that they are all looking at the same elk that I am? They are good to go. I put the dot on her front shoulder. Boom. What the heck! I could see my shot hit above her in the snow, and sage brush. That was way high. She does not know what is going on at his point. She walks a few step and stops. So now I am thinking what is going on. Well hold lower if that last on went high. So I hold about a foot below her chest. I can remember seeing her knee. That shot double lungs her. And the rest of the shots I held low.

    One thing that I did find interesting. After my shooting session's I always clean my bolt, but not my barrel. I normally don't clean the barrel until around 120-150 rounds. I cleaned the bolt after my practice session and it was fine. But when I pulled my bolt out the other night. After the hunt. I found this. If you look at about the four o'clock spot. You can see a piece has broken off the bolt rim. Where that piece is i don't know. Really hoping it did not go down the barrel.
    I have not had a chance to shot it to see if anything has changed. But it still does not ex-plane to me how we where both shooting high.

    I am going to take my steel up too where I shot my elk, and try and figure out what I did wrong. Sorry for the long story. Thanks guys.

    Cory





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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Out of curiousity, was the shots your were taking at any kind of a up or down angle? The farther out you get, the more angle will affect things. I know you said there were calm conditions, but a wind blowing up a face of a hill can cause updrafts. If you were zero'd at 6500, I doubt you would need to rezero at 8500. My rifles are all zero'd at 600' elevation, and are still zero'd at my house in Montana at 5000' elevation. Obviously the amount of elevation needed to hit target at distance is different in the locations, but the zero has never changed.

    Not doubting your shooting abilities, I have seen your video's, but I personally don't have alot of faith in the JBM program or the Shooter for my Droid. They always seem to be different than Exbal for some reason. We use PDA's with Exbal and have always been spot on. This has allowed up to make first round hits on animals out past 1k.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Sorry if I've missed something, but what was the range? Your last post said you ranged the cow @ 798, & it was confirmed by another LRF, but then you doped for 981. Obviously that would put you high.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    What a tough crowd on this website.
    In my opinion this gentleman spent hours on end trying to improve his skill level and be able to hunt at those distances. I find nothing wrong with his effort. I see much worse behavior in the midwest from rifle and shotgun hunters that get there guns out once a year and fling lead all over hell at deer without a clue of where they are shooting.
    I applaud is effort of posting what happened to try and learn where he went wrong.
    One thing to look at is if you are using a temperature sensitive powder and if that might have any affect.
    The other thing I would concider would be a different cheek weld in the feild. I have noticed shooting high before if my cheekweld was not spot on due to shooting from a different postion.
    Also,great point made by Travis concerning the updaft factor as well.
    BLUEJAZZ

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: Bluejazz
    What a tough crowd on this website.
    In my opinion this gentleman spent hours on end trying to improve his skill level and be able to hunt at those distances. I find nothing wrong with his effort. I see much worse behavior in the midwest from rifle and shotgun hunters that get there guns out once a year and fling lead all over hell at deer without a clue of where they are shooting.
    I applaud is effort of posting what happened to try and learn where he went wrong.


    +1. I have no issue whatsoever with how the shooter approached his prep, his hunt or his AAR.
    There is no "I" in team. But there are three "U's" in "Shut the Fu*k Up"

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I've found this very interesting, I've been taking game in the 800-1000yrd range this year, nearly identical elevations as you and I've had two misses this year. This year I'm only taking cold bore shots, if I miss #1 they get to live and I get to figure out why. The two things that have killed the most are ranging and what I call the Kentucky creep, which happens right as I pull the trigger I creep up at the last unstoppable moment because of years of holding over for longer shots, doesn't happen with targets or rocks just game animals.
    The last miss I packed a rock over and put it in the tracks of the animal and re entered all my data and re shot to confirm a miss range of 44yrds, with the correct range I was able to cold bore hit the rock no problem. Going from gongs to game has a little learning curve as well!

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: Bigwheels
    Sorry if I've missed something, but what was the range? Your last post said you ranged the cow @ 798, & it was confirmed by another LRF, but then you doped for 981. Obviously that would put you high.


    Yeah sorry. It was tired when I typed this last night. It should of been 791yards. I changed it.

    Hey, I am not one to say that I didn't just miss. The thing that gets me is that it was with multiple shots for me. My uncle was high on his shots as well. So thinking it is something with the program too. Or just me entering bad info into it. From talking with Travis Redell about using the Nighforce exbal program, and that he has had problems with other ones. I have the Nightforces Exbal program as well. When I get home I will have to see what it comes up with. Until I get out and shoot again. Its all I can do.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I am interested in the "Lay of the Land" you said no wind, but was there any features in that 791 yards that could have created some sheer / lift ? I was at a 1400 yard shoot not long ago that on required 3 MOA dif in elevation from Fri to Sat due to wind creating lift. Were you on a high spot, shooting across a low spot to another high spot ?

    I have seen WAY more BAD hits on game @ 50 yards then 1000, so the posters with the Holier than thou attitude and poorly thought out morals can Kiss Your Ass.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: ~Ace~
    I am interested in the "Lay of the Land" you said no wind, but was there any features in that 791 yards that could have created some sheer / lift ? I was at a 1400 yard shoot not long ago that on required 3 MOA dif in elevation from Fri to Sat due to wind creating lift. Were you on a high spot, shooting across a low spot to another high spot ?

    I have seen WAY more BAD hits on game @ 50 yards then 1000, so the posters with the Holier than thou attitude and poorly thought out morals can Kiss Your Ass.


    +1

    At a match last weekend the entire squad I was shooting with missed about 2 mils low on a KD target set IIRC 996Y.Has to have been a wind anomaly.

    ACE,I totally agree with you about the closer shots and folks wounding animals.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I've read this thread a couple times and I was going to avoid it since it seems to be getting more negative attention than positive, however:

    On the topic of terrain changing your dope in elevation, here's a "shoot for score" lesson that I learned as well. I made an assumption that my ultra-flat shooting 6.5-06 was going to impervious to headwinds and tailwinds at shorter distances.

    I missed a 500yd shot at TVP in September on a Sunday morning. I hit it first time on Sat morning under almost identical conditions with 1 difference. Instead of a 3 o'clock wind, I had a 12 o'clock wind. That accounted for a full 1 MOA of elevation difference in my 6.5-06 and 140 Bergers. The bullet missed the top edge of the 12" plate by appx. 1/2 an R.C.H. and I held 1 MOA low, almost perfect center hit on round 2.

    The lift created by the wind coming over a small ridgeline from appx 200-300yd out was enough to screw me out of a perfect score that morning...

    Also, with what Steve and ACE said... I've seen a lot of Texas Heart Shots from 50yd-150yd away by lazy hunters than I have guys who clean miss at 800 and then drop the animal on round 2. I don't see any problem with your approach, The rest of the rounds coming in to hit and kill her quickly is more kind to her than waiting for a couple minutes of futile gasping and asphyxiation.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Keep in mind that there are a lot of folks in the country that shoot, miss and wound animals and most don’t even attempt to at least check for a blood trails – there are a lot of folks in this category and a lot of them just fling lead for the hell of it.

    You for the most part attempted to prepare for this prior with trial and error and then you attempted the challenge with that said rather then keeping your mouth shut about the complications. You tried to get a understanding on what went down and how to correct it by laying it out here.

    Many of us here are always testing our skills and limits only to improve.


    oneshot.onehit




    Originally Posted By: Skyking
    Originally Posted By: Bigwheels
    Sorry if I've missed something, but what was the range? Your last post said you ranged the cow @ 798, & it was confirmed by another LRF, but then you doped for 981. Obviously that would put you high.


    Yeah sorry. It was tired when I typed this last night. It should of been 791yards. I changed it.

    Hey, I am not one to say that I didn't just miss. The thing that gets me is that it was with multiple shots for me. My uncle was high on his shots as well. So thinking it is something with the program too. Or just me entering bad info into it. From talking with Travis Redell about using the Nighforce exbal program, and that he has had problems with other ones. I have the Nightforces Exbal program as well. When I get home I will have to see what it comes up with. Until I get out and shoot again. Its all I can do.
    oneshot.onehit

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    So if you we're holding at her knees and hitting her in the lungs that should be around 2.5 ish MOA high, that's a bunch!!! An up draft on the face the elk is on will not account for that much, you would need a serious up draft near to the shooter to get that much up lift.
    I would think it would take a fairly noticeable data input error to make a 2.5 MOA error and to do it twice would be harder not to catch.
    I wouldn't think shooter error would be it, generally you know when you yank a air ball that bad and you don't make a correction you just settle down with the same hold and shoot.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens if you re shoot it, I would do it though a crony if possible just to cover that base!

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    skyking, I have tried the bulletflight and FTE to no avail. I'm actually kind of pissed that spent so much damn money on that stuff. The only thing that is going to get you on is shooting at that elevation in similar weather with the same everything (within your control). I played with both programs for some time for hours and could not get real results past 600 yds. I originally bought both so I could travel and have elevation data that was close when I arrived at a new location.
    Also, I have been shooting at some angles, out to 1200 yds, and did not need the angle cosine indicator mounted on my gun. The cosine was never below 91 on the long shots. (shooting 308) Short stuff, where the angle was a little steeper, is not a problem unless you need to be surgical, like shooting out eyeballs.
    Best thing you can do is get out there and shoot. There really isn't any substitute.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    If you can shot consistent MOA sized groups out to 1K under field conditions (no "lucky" 3 shot groups, 5-10's show a pattern. 3 does not.) no one has any business getting on your back.


    Can you? I'm sure I am not the only one who picks up a fair bit of arrogance from your posts.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    This year I was setup on a point and saw a nice bull elk 722 yards away. I had shot my 300 rum all year at long range and was comfortable shooting that far, BUT decided to move in the 520. Point being, I respect the animals and don't want to cause extra suffering so I can brag about a long shot. Just my thoughts. Shoot steel at any range you want, but shooting animals at 1000 yards is irresponsible.
    "Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to wrath."

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: mram10
    shooting animals at 1000 yards is irresponsible.


    With all due respect, I have to disagree. That is what we call a blanket statement. Which means that it applies at all times in every situation.

    If a bull elk walked out to my steel plate at 1000 yds., under the condition that I had just easily put 10 rounds under 10 inches on that plate, and I engaged that elk, I would argue that was responsible hunting. Cold, calculated, practiced, responsible hunting.

    Change AO, temp., barometric pressure, etc., takes a whole different experience level. But my steel plate is dead EVERY time at 1000 yds.

    John
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    There is no such thing as "The Perfect Scope". But I continue to look...

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    I can agree it was a blanket statement. 99% of hunters out there should NOT be shooting that far at animals. As for the 1% that shoot VERY frequently and KNOW there rifle and understand ALL variables included, then fine. If it is a guaranteed 100% kill shot, I will take it. If I have ANY doubts, I prefer to get closer.
    "Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to wrath."

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: mram10
    If I have ANY doubts, I prefer to get closer.


    Agreed. OR... NOT take the shot.

    John
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    There is no such thing as "The Perfect Scope". But I continue to look...

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: sniperaviator
    My guess is range error. A bullet is dropping almost 1" per yard at 1000 yards. If your ranging is off 10 yards, then you are 10" off on your hit.


    I'm with sniperaviator. Just did some similar (although much closer range) "hunting" on whitetail. You need to range several times to ensure you're are getting a return off your soft-skinned target and not off more reflective objects nearby. We had two guys ranging with two different LRF's and only shot when the ranging was certain. We had the Swaro on a tripod to increase accuracy.

    Also, ensure your bullet can perform at the reduced velocities at that range.

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Skyking,

    I commend you on your efforts and wish the “average” hunters around my home hunting grounds would spend a little more time learning the fundamentals. At the very least it would be a much quieter time in the hunting field… Heck, I have even worn my issued body armor in years past and stayed near big trees on opening morning because of spray and pray types who usually don’t have permission to be there in the first place.

    To those who think the OP’s out of line after practicing year long under field conditions, hundreds of round fired and getting first round hits, I’m not sure I follow your logic.

    Humane… Ethical… We are still allowed to hunting with bows, traditional muzzleloaders, handguns and use buckshot in our shotguns. Last I checked death is anything but instant with those methods in the field in most cases. We could still practice running them off cliffs or keeping them running for about a mile and a half until their body can no long resist and we stick them with our hand honed stones.

    Maybe I seem out of line with those that have been able to use rifles for deer hunting but out of the 16 or so deer I have taken with bow, muzzleloader and handguns only one has ever been Died Right There. DRT as I often see it quoted. That was only due to a lucky high hit in the spine that I didn’t intend to make.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote
    Heck, I have even worn my issued body armor in years past and stayed near big trees on opening morning because of spray and pray types who usually don’t have permission to be there in the first place.



    Wow! Are you serious???? Holy shit!
    There is no "I" in team. But there are three "U's" in "Shut the Fu*k Up"

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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Yes!

    Hunting private property about 12 years ago and was walking out to my blind when I heard a healthy whack followed by a boom a half second later! Mind you this was a good 30 minutes before legal hunting hours and the hunter was in my blind and did not have permission to be on the property. I yelled and hit the deck and by the time I recovered, which I waited till the sun was up, the hunter had left only his spent 12ga slug shell behind. After that I wore the armor for a few years whenever I was on someone else’s land other than my own or families. Now I just stay on the family plot during Michigan's deer season.
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    Re: My 1000 yard dope was off while hunting "(HELP)"

    Oh and kevlar is every bit as good as polypropylene for keeping you warm...

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