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Thread: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

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    DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Anyone within reach of the Desert Tactical Arms facility in Utah, come on out this Thursday morning, 0900. We'll be reaching out with their new 375 Cheytac platform and match ammo past 3000 M.

    I'll be bringing a new Rianov weapon-mounted ballistic computer to test as well.

    See the DTA Facebook page for details.

    Sounds like a kick!

    ~SAW

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    You work for DTA too?

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: ColdBoreMiracle
    You work for DTA too?

    No, I just work with them to help when needed. We've also been discussing some sniper courses for me to instruct at their Sniper Country facility in southern Idaho. Great range up there!

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Sawman, heard about our 3K yard demo and wanted to come play, he's been a big supporter of our products and we really appreciate it! The Rainov sounds interesting and we will get the data over to them tomorrow. Been tied up over the weekend.

    It will be a good time and all attendees will be in for a real treat. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] Dress warm everyone, it is freezing outside out here.



    Thanks

    Nick
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: SAWMAN
    Originally Posted By: ColdBoreMiracle
    You work for DTA too?

    No, I just work with them to help when needed. We've also been discussing some sniper courses for me to instruct at their Sniper Country facility in southern Idaho. Great range up there!


    Still in Utah Craig. Not quite up to the Idaho border.

    Range kicks butt though!
    https://www.facebook.com/DesertTacticalMunitions

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young
    Sawman, heard about our 3K yard demo and wanted to come play, he's been a big supporter of our products and we really appreciate it! The Rainov sounds interesting and we will get the data over to them tomorrow. Been tied up over the weekend.

    It will be a good time and all attendees will be in for a real treat. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] Dress warm everyone, it is freezing outside out here.

    Thanks

    Nick


    I drove out to the site yesterday to check distances. Roads look good. We are supposed to get snow over the next couple days so conditions can def change. We will have multiple trucks on site between the bunch of us. Also, I will have my RZR on site to speed up target runs, 3000 yards on a crappy road eats up some time.

    Russ W
    https://www.facebook.com/DesertTacticalMunitions

    However horrible the incidents of war may be, a soldier who is called upon to offer and give his life for his country is the noblest development of mankind.
    Douglas McAthur

    "It's not just good, it's good enough"

    SEMPER FI!

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: SAWMAN
    Originally Posted By: ColdBoreMiracle
    You work for DTA too?

    No, I just work with them to help when needed. We've also been discussing some sniper courses for me to instruct at their Sniper Country facility in southern Idaho. Great range up there!

    Ok, I thought something had changed. The other threads about this shoot said nothing about Sniper Country, I'd hate to drive two hours in the wrong direction. Thanks for clearing things up Russ and Nick. Im glad Sniper Country moved back to Utah! [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: SAWMAN
    We've also been discussing some sniper courses for me to instruct at their Sniper Country facility in southern Idaho.

    So will you be teaching Land Nav classes?

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    I don't mess with facebook. Is the shoot still going to be out by Tooele South Depot?
    We have the right to kill four million Americans—two million of them children — and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands.
    —Suleiman Abu Gheith
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!


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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    All smiles Nick?

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Can anyone comment on the shoot besides smiley faces?

    I wish I could have attended, but was on a buffalo hunt the past couple of days instead.

    How did it go?

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!



    There is jake, standing at the target 3,080yds

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Just about got the writeup finished guys. ColdBore thanks for posting some pics up. The cardboard targets are shown at 3080 yards there are two of them each 6'5" tall and 4'9" wide. Our two observers are standing next to the targets marking hits (they are not very tall. [img]<>/wink.gif[/img] ). The two steel silleuttes in the bottom of the picture are 2000 yards away. Picture was taken through Heinzholdt 20-60x spotter with
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young
    Picture was taken through Heinzholdt 20-60x spotter with
    My Iphone


    I've got some videos to put up soon as well.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    No mention of hits, just fun?

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: milo-2
    No mention of hits, just fun?


    Nick is putting together a complete writeup
    https://www.facebook.com/DesertTacticalMunitions

    However horrible the incidents of war may be, a soldier who is called upon to offer and give his life for his country is the noblest development of mankind.
    Douglas McAthur

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    SEMPER FI!

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    At 3080 meters we are talking just slightly over 1.9 miles here. That is some serious extreme long range shooting. What kind of accuracy were you seeing that far out? Even the 375 Cheytac goes sub-sonic at that distance according to my info on the round.
    "He is come to open the purple testament of bleeding war" - Richard II, Act III, Scene 3 by William Shakespeare

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    1 mile = 1760 yards so 3080 yards = 1.75 Miles. We will shoot 2 miles at some point though. [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    How many first shot hits with the super-duper ultra secret NASA born ballistic suite? [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    guys,
    I just posted the after action report of our 3080 yard shoot here:

    http://www.dtacomlink.com/dta-dtm-30...i-375-cheytac/

    We shot the HTI .375CT with factory DTM ammo so check it out. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Fantastic results. That is no easy task given the environmental factors. I would enjoy brainstorming the data and imputing it into our ballistic program to see how it sifts out. I feel that the .375 can reach the 3600 yard mark with extreme accuracy and repeatability.
    Stand tall. Shoot low.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Kilmore,
    Lets go shoot together soon, you, Russ, and I.
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Hey Guys thanks for the write up, was a good read. Damn this makes me miss my Barret! Seriously jealous of those DTA's.
    'Savage' describes a cultural condition, not a degree of intelligence.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Sure wish I could have been there!!
    Were the holes still nice and round or did you get some "keyholes" after dropping through to sub-sonic?
    We have the right to kill four million Americans—two million of them children — and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc
    Sure wish I could have been there!!
    Were the holes still nice and round or did you get some "keyholes" after dropping through to sub-sonic?


    That was one of the things we were watching for. Every round that impacted cardboard prior to bouncing of the ground enetered perfectly stable. There were a few "keyholes" but those were called as short rounds by my fearless spotters down range.

    I was and am very interested in testing multiple other bullets to see who is the best of the best when it comes to SS transition. So far Cutting Edge takes the cake.
    https://www.facebook.com/DesertTacticalMunitions

    However horrible the incidents of war may be, a soldier who is called upon to offer and give his life for his country is the noblest development of mankind.
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    SEMPER FI!

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Ricochets count right. [img]<>/wink.gif[/img] Troy bounced one into the target, now that's talent!
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: ColdBoreMiracle
    Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young
    Picture was taken through Heinzholdt 20-60x spotter with
    My Iphone


    I've got some videos to put up soon as well.



    What adapter are you using?
    http://VisionProShop.com
    Capture and share long range HD images and video using your smartphone with your scope or other optics.


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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Nicholas and Russ, looking forward to the technological ascension of ELR shooting. Good work if you can get it. Talk to you soon, Kilmore.
    Stand tall. Shoot low.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Damn right ricochets count! We teach a technique called "Cover Shooting" in Combat Tracking where you purposely aim low into ground cover to root out bad guys. If you never seen what a jacketed bullet will do to a guys eyes and guts once it has bounced off gravel or dirt and made impact, it is something to behold. Gets them up and running every time and in no short order. A tactic used by the Selous Scouts during the Bush War in Rhodesia.
    Stand tall. Shoot low.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Nick, Russ,

    Great shooting, and the ammo is impressive! Kudo's for doing the T & E under such cold conditions.

    FWIW, the S&B H2CMR reticle has 15 mils holdover, without any thick stadia at the ends.

    I've also got a pair of vintage (1985?) Navy contract Leupold Mk4 20X fixed scopes, with etched glass mil-dot reticles, and ~ 140 moa elevation adjustment! Happy to share if it would help! [img]<>/wink.gif[/img]

    I gotta get out there and shoot with you guys!

    Scott
    Men who for truth and honor's sake
    Stand fast and suffer long.
    Brave men who work while others sleep,
    Who dare while others fly...
    They build a nation's pillars deep
    And lift them to the sky. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: MINITS iWitness
    Originally Posted By: ColdBoreMiracle
    Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young
    Picture was taken through Heinzholdt 20-60x spotter with
    My Iphone


    I've got some videos to put up soon as well.



    What adapter are you using?


    Completely my bad!

    We are fielding the iWitness adapter on out Hensoldt spotters as well as our vortex razor spotter. We had hoped to get video of the impacts but ground conditions prevented that. I will be getting some more footage tomorrow while we test the iWitness adapter some more.

    We are looking forward to attaching the iPhone to our rifles as well for some training exercises and videos as well.
    https://www.facebook.com/DesertTacticalMunitions

    However horrible the incidents of war may be, a soldier who is called upon to offer and give his life for his country is the noblest development of mankind.
    Douglas McAthur

    "It's not just good, it's good enough"

    SEMPER FI!

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    lrs50bmg,
    ohhh, 140 MOA sounds very attractive right now. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] You gotta shoot the HTI scott.

    Kilmore,
    looking forward to it, I asked Russ to see if we could put something together in the next two weeks.
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Yeah buddy, the Navy M4 would be real nice to work with. Can't remember if they were .250 MOA or not? Been a while since I saw one of those gems. One eighth is the best way to go if you can find it. Not easy to find a good scope with 140 MOA of adjustment these days. Gotta love old school. Lets shoot the buggers and see what we can do!
    Stand tall. Shoot low.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: MINITS iWitness
    Originally Posted By: ColdBoreMiracle
    Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young
    Picture was taken through Heinzholdt 20-60x spotter with
    My Iphone


    I've got some videos to put up soon as well.



    What adapter are you using?

    .

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    you never mentioned what method was used to establish your dope , so some blanks were filled in...

    Quote:

    Since no program was mentioned in Nick’s report I ran some numbers to see how the predictions worked out at that extreme range.

    DTA’s report yielded the following

    Environmental (verified with Kestrel weather station)
    Distance: 3040 Yards verified with vector IV (reliably ranges to 6KM)
    Temperature: 13 to 17 (5 to 10 drop with wind chill)
    Barometric Pressure: 30.3
    Altitude: 5,446 ASL
    Humidity: 46%
    Bullet Flight Data
    Velocity Remaining at Target: approx 850+ fps.
    Time of Flight to Target: 6.5 second flight time.
    Wind 6 mph (gusts to 10-12)
    Elevation Adjustment Required: 40.8 MILS above 100 yard zero
    Wind Hold range: 1 MIL to 2.5 MILS
    Supersonic range in conditions: 2560 yards

    Now, if you use the following input for all 3 programs:

    MV= 3118 fps
    BC – G1 = 0.890
    DC = 0.500 (ColdBore 1.0)
    BW = 352 gr
    ZR = 100 yards
    SH = 2.0 Inches
    WD = 030º
    WV= 9.0 Mph
    Lat = 40ºN (aporx)
    Az = 003º

    you get these results from 3 programs. It’s important to note that I used, just for comparison purposes a calculated BC-G7 of 0.433 and since Litz’s program does not use BARO, the input Air Density was 0.07071 lb/ft³ which is the exactly the same as for using a BARO pressure.

    Range = 3040 yards ( 2780 meters)

    ColdBore 1.0 = 40.8 MRAD
    JBM (with BC – G1) = 36.1 MRAD
    JBM (with BC –G7) = 38.2 MRAD
    Litz (with BC – G1) = 37.04 MRAD
    Litz (with BC – G7) = 39.24 MRAD

    As can be fully appreciated, NO TWEAKING at all was used in neither program.

    Coriolis is basically nil since the target’s Az is almost North, otherwise at that distance, it could represent a major issue.

    In regards to CB1 it’s important to note, that I used the ZR in METERS (90m) instead of yards, in order to go beyond the limit of 3000 yards, so effectively allowing the program to up the range’s upper limit to 3000 meters (3280.8 yards)…a little trick! So my Range for comparisons was 2780 meters. (3040 yards)

    I like this kind of test because they allow me to teach the critical importance of Wind at extreme ranges, given the significant effect it has on the bullet’s drag…something that some LR students fail to see at shorter ranges.

    Now, beyond the predictive huge differences and final “best overall prediction” that allows a real first hit, I think it’s a solid argument for your continuous statement on the G1 vs. G7 debate…and once again you are right on the money, what is important is the ballistics engine…not the Drag Function.


    I would be interesting to add what you used to get your numbers, even if it was more trial and error than using a program or some other method. If you can, actually shooting it is the best method, but a lot of people can't afford to send that many rounds downrange, especially with the big guns.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Very impressive ....
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Especially when you consider G1 was used to develop a prediction... that is not supposed to happen.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Field Firing Solutions is the program that was used, Russ was running the computer and can provide more details than I can.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Which would also make sense,

    How were the predictions, did you calibrate it prior or just load the data and send it ?
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    We caliberated initial zero with the computer at 500 yards, then plugged the data and went straight to 3080 yards. Actual was within 0.5 mils if memory serves.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Awesome

    Thanks for the update Nick,

    If you talk to Russ have him stop by and fill us in regarding the use of FFS.

    The ballistic engine in FFS & CB1 both use a modified Pesja engine as opposed to the more common Point Mass, and I think it matters. It's been my contention that using this method that is not Drag Function dependent eliminates the questions of G1 vs G7 as it doesn't matter to either of these programs. Clearly with PM it does, and that is fine, but CB1 & FFS are finer.

    Good Job braving the cold and snow.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    As I replay the shot sequences in my mind I initially held what the Program suggested but my first shot was just over the target so I dropped down 0.5 mil and was low so in the end I think I was using the initial dope it suggested. The adjustment that I put in the report was the actual dope we used to hit the target consistently so. I just pinged Russ and hopefully he will hop on here and give the spotter info he collected.

    Thanks

    Nick
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Guys,
    The distance was 3080 yards, it was a typo in the environmental section, we are correcting it today. Sorry for the mixup, guess that's what happens when you spend all night typing up all the info.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    OK gents, and Frank, grin..... I kid I kid.

    Until Thursday morning the furthest I had fired was 2750 yards.

    As Nick stated. The rifle was zeroed and confirmed at 500 yards. All environmentals were taken into account and punched into my Field Firing Solutions Program that I have loaded onto a Trimble T41 Juno. It's the touch screen PDA but built like a tank. I'm very happy with it.

    Something to note is that we tested the Vortex Razor scope thoroughly. Everything was SPOT ON except for the minor fact that each click was .102 mils instead of the .1, this is extremely precise and better than a number of scopes I have tested in the past. No scope is perfect, but this was as close to perfect as I could hope fore. I mention this because with FFS you have the ability to put the exact adjustments into the system and it will give you actual mils as well as what you should dial into the scope with the calibration.

    So. Conditions for zeroing the rifle were as follows.

    Altitude 4639
    Pressure 24.76
    Temp 23 F
    Humidity 53.4%
    Bearing .08 degrees true
    Wind 6-9 mph from 1730

    Actual conditions punched into the Trimble Thursday morning.
    Altitude 4639
    Pressure 30.3
    Temp 15
    Humidity 46%
    Bearing .08 degrees true
    Wind 6-12 mph from 1700

    Actual information that the Trimble/FFS spit out was:

    Actual Mils adjustment for 3080 yards in these conditions was 40.2 mils.

    Corrected turret solution for the error, 39.6 mils with a .9 wind hold.

    Now since we dialed to the top of the scope adjustment and then held another 10.25 there was probably a little error induced as the reticle is dead on.

    We were calling wind during the shooting so it was varying a bit as noted above. You think calling wind at 1000 can be tricky? Triple it, spotters down range are a HUGE help. I was able to put wind in at the muzzle and wind in at the target to enhance accuracy for Nicks shots.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Looks like I need to update more in my environmental section than just the range typo. The altitude I had was incorrect too but the rest looks the same.

    I saw Troy talking to you about the conditions so I assumed what he posted was accurate. Sorry Russ should have just got it directly from you first, In a race to get this thing up I got hasty.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young
    Looks like I need to update more in my environmental section than just the range typo. The altitude I had was incorrect too but the rest looks the same.

    I saw Troy talking to you about the conditions so I assumed what he posted was accurate. Sorry Russ should have just got it directly from you first, In a race to get this thing up I got hasty.


    Haha, sorry Nick. All my data was from memory yesterday. My Trimble was in the truck. I gave Troy the quick version.

    All this information came from the on site Kestrel as well as multiple downloads from weather stations.....just trying to get the best numbers I could. I believe Troy just used his iPhone for the info.
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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Roger!
    The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes for change, the leader sets the sail.

    A true leader leaves behind him, in other men, the conviction to carry on.

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    Re: DTA 3000M + Long Range Shoot This Thursday!

    Now, the new solution for ColdBore 1.0 is 40.7 MRAD at 3080 yards (2816 meters). This value is actually for turret, thus accounting for the scope tracking error.

    Changing the tracking error in CB1 just needs a slight tweak in TRT Units

    Thanks for the updated values
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